NJMP PCA Club Race 2017 Schattenbaum Showdown
08-30-2017, 12:11 PM
#226
Instructor
There should be a rule to encourage larger fields by doing a split start with a minimum car count (20 cars in a class?). This would be GOOD for PCA as it would encourage people to show up at a race. For example, if we had 18 cars registered for a race - you'd bet like hell we'd be recruiting "customers" to bring their car and race to get the split start. That's more cars showing up and better $$ for PCA.
Or you get something like this. We had a 18 car field and I didn't race with a single car in my class all weekend. P1 had a comfortable 4 car gap of cars with 50% more horsepower that I was respectfully racing and working to try to get around and P3 had the same to try to catch up to me... I traveled 3,200 miles round trip to race against a GT4, etc. all weekend.
Or you get something like this. We had a 18 car field and I didn't race with a single car in my class all weekend. P1 had a comfortable 4 car gap of cars with 50% more horsepower that I was respectfully racing and working to try to get around and P3 had the same to try to catch up to me... I traveled 3,200 miles round trip to race against a GT4, etc. all weekend.
08-30-2017, 12:13 PM
#227
Rennlist Member
Low car class fields has the cars/drivers wanting to race with SOMEONE since they have really no one to race with in their own class. So who can blame them for wanting to get "race'y" with faster drivers in slower cars. It's frustrating but reality.
Look at the Summit roster with the letter cars.
H = 2 racers, I = 2 racers, J = 3 racers, K = 1 racer
Look at the Summit roster with the letter cars.
H = 2 racers, I = 2 racers, J = 3 racers, K = 1 racer
08-30-2017, 12:26 PM
#228
Rennlist Member
08-30-2017, 12:30 PM
#229
Burning Brakes
The trick is to give racing room upon overlap. This way the car that's faster in the corners has the chance to get away from the 3sec slower car that's faster on the straights. When the enforced rules mandate that all passes must be completed on the straights (before turn-in) then the faster but lower HP car can never legally pass the slower but higher HP car, unless the latter shows mercy and lets it go. Mandating that side-by-side driving must only occur on straights is not racing either -- it's not even DE for the advanced Black and Red groups.
That's a great point but I think that the root of the problem are the enforced passing rules which only allow side-by-side driving on the straights (before turn-in). In the turns, everyone must line up into a choo-choo train since the car ahead at turn-in has the corner (but doesn't "own" it). Racing with out-of-class cars can be smooth, a lot of fun, and without much (if any) loss of time if everyone left racing room for a passing car that establishes overlap. This way, the cars that are faster in the corners would not be handicapped against the cars that are faster on the straights. If they are 3sec faster they would be gone in no time.
08-30-2017, 12:43 PM
#230
Rennlist Member
You're taking this passing rule to an illogical extreme that just doesn't reflect how people actually race in PCA. (Even if that is how incidents might be judged). I was side-by-side with lots of cars, shared plenty of corners. There is lots of respect out there - for both the drivers and the metal!
Its clearly a sore point for you HF1, which I can understand. But I do think you have by now sufficiently made your point on passing rules.
08-30-2017, 12:46 PM
#231
Rennlist Member
I agree, except when there isn't and the passing car gets denied racing room by a chop so it must either pull-out in a hurry under threshold braking to line up for the corner choo-choo train or gets a 13.
08-30-2017, 01:49 PM
#232
Rennlist Member
There are two basic methodologies around creating rule sets. Rule based systems and principle based systems. Rule based systems attempt to legislate each and every scenario and provide guidance as to how every person shall act. Principle based systems attempt to legislate culture and require buy in from each participant to function. There are of course hybrid systems; the U.S. criminal justice system is mostly rule based but large swaths of the civil system is principle based (premeditated murder is illegal vs. violating the reasonable person standard).
PCA passing rules appear, from someone who has reviewed them but not lived them and certainly wasn't involved in their drafting, adoption or implementation, to be an attempt at a principle based system with the hallmark principle of that system being an avoidance of contact.
If everyone agreed there would never be contact that would be the end of it. But contact in racing is inevitable because the drivers are imperfect humans.
As a result, I would surmise that PCA has adopted some minimal guidelines to both allow the assignment of responsibility and to guide competitor behavior. Because the passing car has the most control over the relative positioning of the cars, and because PCA has decided that avoiding contact is more important than any other aspect of the event (emphasis and conclusion mine), the trailing car has the obligation to do whatever is necessary to avoid contact unless and until they are no longer the trailing car.
So, hf1, you can keep talking about how the rules need to change, but it isn't a rules based system. It's a principle based system with a few rules for those who don't buy in to the culture and the principles of that system. For those who buy in to that culture, the system works fine.
PCA passing rules appear, from someone who has reviewed them but not lived them and certainly wasn't involved in their drafting, adoption or implementation, to be an attempt at a principle based system with the hallmark principle of that system being an avoidance of contact.
If everyone agreed there would never be contact that would be the end of it. But contact in racing is inevitable because the drivers are imperfect humans.
As a result, I would surmise that PCA has adopted some minimal guidelines to both allow the assignment of responsibility and to guide competitor behavior. Because the passing car has the most control over the relative positioning of the cars, and because PCA has decided that avoiding contact is more important than any other aspect of the event (emphasis and conclusion mine), the trailing car has the obligation to do whatever is necessary to avoid contact unless and until they are no longer the trailing car.
So, hf1, you can keep talking about how the rules need to change, but it isn't a rules based system. It's a principle based system with a few rules for those who don't buy in to the culture and the principles of that system. For those who buy in to that culture, the system works fine.
08-30-2017, 02:03 PM
#233
Yeah, it sucks getting chopped but you have to anticipate it and prepare for it. If you aren't fully established in position for the pass in advance then be prepared to eject. It's not like someone closing the door on me came as a surprise.
There were plenty of times I had half a car alongside coming into a corner but as soon as I realized I wasn't fully established I backed out tucked back in behind and set the pass up again. There were other times I knew based on the car in front I would complete the pass prior to them turning in and took it. . At the same time we ran two wide from T2-T5 without any issue. I knew who was there and we gave each other plenty of room. I was able to finally establish myself through T4 and he dropped in behind me. I also ran two wide through T1 and saw numerous other cars do the same. There was definitely a mutual understanding, awareness and trust to running 2 wide though, neither car assumed the other one knew they were there. You pretty quickly learn who you can trust out there...
Yeah, I would have loved to have taken my half a car length and claimed I had position and deserved racing room but guess what, that's not how it was covered in the rule book or my orientation meeting so I adhered to the rules as they were presented to me. Period... One thing I didn't do was assume the car in front of me saw me and shove my nose in.
Patience+Prep=passing simple equation.
Passing isn't a given, that was very obvious in my first race!!! You need to earn it and just being faster doesn't mean you earned it... II knew that if I couldn't get around cleanly under PCA rules then back off and try it again. Don't like the rules petition to change them or move to a different racing series. Personally I love the fact that if I do everything by the rules and my competitor's do as well there isa very very high probability I am taking my car home in the same manner I brought it to the track... Isn't that the end goal of Club Racing? Have fun, preserve the equipment and be safe...
08-30-2017, 02:15 PM
#234
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You're taking this passing rule to an illogical extreme that just doesn't reflect how people actually race in PCA. (Even if that is how incidents might be judged). I was side-by-side with lots of cars, shared plenty of corners. There is lots of respect out there - for both the drivers and the metal!
08-30-2017, 02:24 PM
#235
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
You're taking this passing rule to an illogical extreme that just doesn't reflect how people actually race in PCA. (Even if that is how incidents might be judged). I was side-by-side with lots of cars, shared plenty of corners. There is lots of respect out there - for both the drivers and the metal!
08-30-2017, 02:36 PM
#236
Rennlist Member
There are two basic methodologies around creating rule sets. Rule based systems and principle based systems. Rule based systems attempt to legislate each and every scenario and provide guidance as to how every person shall act. Principle based systems attempt to legislate culture and require buy in from each participant to function. There are of course hybrid systems; the U.S. criminal justice system is mostly rule based but large swaths of the civil system is principle based (premeditated murder is illegal vs. violating the reasonable person standard).
Because the passing car has the most control over the relative positioning of the cars,...
...and because PCA has decided that avoiding contact is more important than any other aspect of the event (emphasis and conclusion mine), the trailing car has the obligation to do whatever is necessary to avoid contact unless and until they are no longer the trailing car.
So, hf1, you can keep talking about how the rules need to change, but it isn't a rules based system. It's a principle based system with a few rules for those who don't buy in to the culture and the principles of that system. For those who buy in to that culture, the system works fine.
Joking aside, my point is that the passing rules, as they stand, are not only contradictory and confusing but the parts of them which are (most often, but not always) enforced do NOT support the shared principle of contact-avoidance being the top priority.
Leaving racing room (co-existence) upon overlap fits the principle of contact-avoidance ("live and let live") much better, IMO.
Thanks for your counter-point.
08-30-2017, 08:41 PM
#238
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Maybe at a track like NJMP where the straight is short and HP is not as big a factor but I've had many a race ruined at places like VIR where you can leave someone behind then get to the long back straight and they just drive right by you. Or Summit where a slow car in the carousel is the kiss of death for us. I could post HOURS of video being screwed by lapped or slow traffic with horsepower.
Take a G car that turns 2:17's at VIR vs an SPB at 2:14. That G car is 3 seconds ahead at the end of the back straight. Easily. Then he parks the car at the top of the roller coaster and you are on his bumper at 3/4 throttle until Oak Tree where he stomps the gas and drives away and you do it all over again while your competition is clipping off 2:13's. It's part of multi-class racing sure but the reverse is also part of multi-class racing.
Different cars make their lap times in different ways.
We should all be more respectful of each other's races and know who is racing who. How to work thru out of class traffic is a two way street.
I will often get the radio call when the leaders are coming thru and I'll keep my eye out for them.
Just stuff to think about.
Last edited by Streak; 08-30-2017 at 10:31 PM.
08-30-2017, 09:39 PM
#239
Rennlist Member
- The car ahead at turn in... does not “own” the corner.
- Everyone must leave racing room.
Or this one?
- The car ahead at turn in has the corner...
And are you suggesting that shutting doors on cars under threshold braking (at the limit) into turns is SAFER and more conducive to returning your car back home untouched than co-existing and leaving racing room?
Don't like the rules petition to change them or move to a different racing series.
Personally I love the fact that if I do everything by the rules and my competitor's do as well there isa very very high probability I am taking my car home in the same manner I brought it to the track... Isn't that the end goal of Club Racing? Have fun, preserve the equipment and be safe...
Last edited by hf1; 08-30-2017 at 10:08 PM.
08-30-2017, 11:27 PM
#240
Rennlist Member
You're taking this passing rule to an illogical extreme that just doesn't reflect how people actually race in PCA. (Even if that is how incidents might be judged). I was side-by-side with lots of cars, shared plenty of corners. There is lots of respect out there - for both the drivers and the metal!