LuigiVampa

One fact which I think has really been overlooked is that the driver says it was brake failure.

We are up to 15 pages because we think he is just covering his a$$?

It looks like brake failure to me. A bunch of people here think its brake failure. The driver said its brake failure. Perhaps its brake failure?

Gofishracing

My first responder said it is posted on Face Book as a brake failure. I don't see it that way. What I learned is not to put my feet up on air bag if in passenger seat to brace myself. That was where this all started.

Coochas

I understand what you are saying. But, the brakes looked pretty good to me going into the toe. The car didn't ride any turtles after that. If the brake pedal was really soft or something going into the toe, then it would have been nuts to take a pass before the heel.

If this was a relatively green student it is possible that he locked his brakes initially giving rise to the squirrelly behavior and then just panicked after that. It happens.

Veloce Raptor

Perhaps. But I believe he hammered the brakes and as the rears locked (hence no smoke visible up front) he then lunched the downshift at the same time. And the engine suddenly going to idle is perhaps going both feet in, with the rears locked. Could the rears locking been brake failure? Perhaps. But more likely a result of suddenly unloading he back end by hitting the pedal too hard, combined with the putrid rear E30 suspension

mark kibort

as i have said, i tend to agree with you. there are tell tale signs that the brake failed. number one, the movement of the front of the car with steering input.... that doesnt happen with lock up... also the sounds dont sound like lock up.
However, the bad downshifts and quick releases of the clutch, might have started the ball rolling.......also, being in neutral didnt help (or clutch pressed in)
feet up is not a good idea in any way shape or form. (unless your seat belts were not buckeled! )


that might be the answer.. just a panic attack.... remember, his post mortem said, no lines were burst.. just a little bit of fluid near a caliper..... its got to be pad knock back.. which can be g force related, not "turtles", or the lines burst (as what happened to me at laguna seca .. complete brake failure)

If he messed with the bias, with the e36 brakes or stock e30 brake system, its possible. ive seen rear lock up, but with the steering action, he would have looped it ...NOT pushed as it did. My vote still stays with brake failure... but im not 100%.. maybe 85% ..
Im sure if the questions and tasks they ask of you, your presentation doesnt relate to racing, and any experience with racing, im sure you will do just fine! have fun.

TXE36

If the rears were locked, how did he keep it from spinning as the car was turning right at the time?

Whenever I've locked the rears I've always had copious amounts of smoke visible in the video in the inside and outside rear view mirrors.

I go back to what the driver wrote and by looking the lack of deceleration apparent in the video. The rear side to side funniness could have just been from the shift w/o brake involvement. Or maybe he thought he was on the brakes and was not - still ends up looking like failed brakes.

In the end, all it proves again is **** happens at the track. Don't try put your feet on the dash and wear a HANS.

-Mike

mark kibort

I think you are right on all counts Mike.

mark kibort

I just watched it a few more times. you can clearly see the speedometer in the early part of the sequence, then upon "lock up" or brake failure, the speedo, is still registering speed.... if you lock up, you would see the needle go to zero. it doesnt
i still think the speed hitting that wall is much more indicative of brake failure than lock up.. maybe we will never know.

Thundermoose

Or he forgot to brake once he started losing control

Jabs1542

For reference I just checked my WGI video from last year. I start braking on Turn 8 at about 250 feet (midway between the 300 and 200 markers) and I get close to 120 (technically 118) before I start braking.

Gofishracing

Mark - you have typo's. I thought you were precise? Sent it to to BMW guys I know. Friends of Rogue. It still looks like weight transfer to me. I'm at the track alot. Never saw any BMW brake failures. Corvette, Ford Shelby, Camaro, Mustang and others. Never saw BMW.

mark kibort

that seems possible, but hard to imagine... lock up would be more believable, but the car doesnt seem to respond like its locked up , front or rear.
sounds about right, but this Bmw seemed to be a lot slower at the 300ft marker where he lifted and tried to bang a downshift. i was going off engine speed of that gear he was in, where you could see the speedo clearly earlier.

Sorry about the typos.. trying to work and out of the corner of my eye, partake in this discussion. had something hot i needled to be more precise with.
weight transfer doesnt happen unless you have a lot of grip. ive only seen brake failures when the lines burst. or pad knock back.(or pad come apart)
bmw, stock brakes , are very similar to mustang , porsche, single piston calipers. sounds like this guy had the good stuff.. St40 or better if i remember. those calipers dont fail often if ever. the fact that he didnt find any postmortem issues like blown line , etc, makes me wonder about the brakes failing too. but, the fact remains.. he didnt slow much and didnt seem to lock up.. maybe we need to get some examples of lock up on a turn like that and see how the car reacts and sounds from a similar speed.

Jabs1542

I'll be at WGI in two weeks, but I'm not volunteering to lock up on Turn 8 so you guys can collect data.

I will be paying more attention to the runout in that corner. I thought there was a fair amount of distance (much better than many other places at WGI). But it may be similar to the runout in Turn 10, a lot if you leave the track at mid corner, not so much if you leave the track at track-out.

Thundermoose

I'll be there on 14&15 with Niagara Region PCA. I too do not plan to lockup.

Gofishracing

Groundhog day. So look at the turn before how he lifts in the turn and the tires start talking as the car is pushing.. Back starts to come around slightly. The next turn, with the unbalancing of the car- weird shifting before braking & going to neutral- (clutch depressed )as well as late braking & steering input? That would transfer weight to the front- unloading the rear and just pushing the car off the track. The wiggle at 31 looks like the rear just lost contact with race surface from the weight transfer? Good morning ..