Crash: Instructor braces himself with his feet on the dash.
05-31-2017, 10:45 AM
#182
The Penguin King
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Nope, Mark. I saw 1.55 g sustained at the toe of the boot today in an R7-equipped 964.
There's plenty of corners greater than T8A at Laguna Seca, although that's a good one. I measure 2.25 in a flat bottom forty year old F1 car there. And that is at speeds below the aero threshold.
There's plenty of corners greater than T8A at Laguna Seca, although that's a good one. I measure 2.25 in a flat bottom forty year old F1 car there. And that is at speeds below the aero threshold.
05-31-2017, 02:54 PM
#183
Rennlist Member
Nope, Mark. I saw 1.55 g sustained at the toe of the boot today in an R7-equipped 964.
There's plenty of corners greater than T8A at Laguna Seca, although that's a good one. I measure 2.25 in a flat bottom forty year old F1 car there. And that is at speeds below the aero threshold.
There's plenty of corners greater than T8A at Laguna Seca, although that's a good one. I measure 2.25 in a flat bottom forty year old F1 car there. And that is at speeds below the aero threshold.
How ever you get warm by mentioning "aero"
think peter.............do i have to spell it out for you?
Again, let me say it again slightly differently....... it is the most heavily weight loaded high g loaded corner (let's exclude F1).
I said this:
Ive seen it at Laguna seca at the exit of the corkscrew. the highest compression 1.5 g loading turn in racing. the high lateral gs with high positive gs, makes for a tremendous amount of stress on the hubs . if you have any slop in the bearings, watch the pedal go to the floor before turn 10.
Clue: the hubs are subjected to the highest sustained lateral forces here.
do you think it compares with a 7 story drop in about 200ft? (along with the g lateral g loading)
i think maybe turn 6 at laguna might be on par with that Spa turn.
Last edited by mark kibort; 05-31-2017 at 03:23 PM.
05-31-2017, 03:03 PM
#184
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05-31-2017, 03:26 PM
#185
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you understand i was referring to compression AND g loading. the combination is what causes more forces on the hubs.
Here is another hint for.. do you understand my point now?
out of the corkscrew
it's about 4" of compression with 800lb springs I dont think there is another turn in the world that creates this amount of sustained compression without aero forces.
Here is another hint for.. do you understand my point now?
out of the corkscrew
it's about 4" of compression with 800lb springs I dont think there is another turn in the world that creates this amount of sustained compression without aero forces.
05-31-2017, 03:50 PM
#186
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Mark, aero forces have to do with speed.
T8A at MRLS is UNDER that "aero threshold," as is the Toe at the Glen, in terms of speed. So no aero "aid."
Eau Rouge is a different story. And the combination of downforce, compression and speed all make the forces acting on the car greater, because of it.
Compression is measured in vertical g force, and having terabytes of collected data from a variety of different cars and more than a hundred tracks, I would put several places up against T8A as having at least as much (or more) compression. More than your stated 1.5g (lateral g measured, without a vertical g component, but augmented by that vertical g)...
I knew what you were talking about, but you missed that...
T8A at MRLS is UNDER that "aero threshold," as is the Toe at the Glen, in terms of speed. So no aero "aid."
Eau Rouge is a different story. And the combination of downforce, compression and speed all make the forces acting on the car greater, because of it.
Compression is measured in vertical g force, and having terabytes of collected data from a variety of different cars and more than a hundred tracks, I would put several places up against T8A as having at least as much (or more) compression. More than your stated 1.5g (lateral g measured, without a vertical g component, but augmented by that vertical g)...
I knew what you were talking about, but you missed that...
05-31-2017, 04:48 PM
#187
Rennlist Member
I see a lot of posts have been hidden in my feed. Somebody has been busy...
05-31-2017, 05:51 PM
#189
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05-31-2017, 05:58 PM
#190
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05-31-2017, 06:07 PM
#191
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Peter, no it didnt seem you understood what i was talking about.
the point of my post was to incorporate a vertical g loading with a lateral g loading. (usually, this is simlar to an aero loading as far as effect)
you think the toe of the boot has as much of a delta height vs delta time as turn 8a? (aka rate of change vertical speed... aka power
) again, it doesnt matter if it does or not. its the point that with the higher downward force, more g loading can occur, thus putting more load on the hubs. do we agree on that point ???
since we are talking about what is greater, stop talking about F1 vs sports cars. we are talking about Eau rouge, in a sports car where aero downforce is paltry compared to the drop forces of turn8 at laguana. AND the delta height vs delta time is also not as great. I didnt do the calculation yet, but willing to bet you that is the case. provide some evidence to the contrary if you have it.
The fact that you have "measurements"of vertical gs,and referring to them, shows you are not understanding what im talking about. we are not talking about bumps in the road compression. im talking about , as i said clearly, "sustained" compression. talk to any race car team in the country, and talk to them about set up at laguna. most all are concerned about bottoming out at turn8, unlike any other track in the world. whether or not you have evidence to contradict what im talking about......... the point is. these forces act on the hubs and can cause pad push back like no other track in the world. (or maybe if you prove me wrong on that claim, a few others) either way, vertical loads like Dave was suggesting is usually not the cause. (bumps, birms,etc)
your turn!
Mk
the point of my post was to incorporate a vertical g loading with a lateral g loading. (usually, this is simlar to an aero loading as far as effect)
you think the toe of the boot has as much of a delta height vs delta time as turn 8a? (aka rate of change vertical speed... aka power
) again, it doesnt matter if it does or not. its the point that with the higher downward force, more g loading can occur, thus putting more load on the hubs. do we agree on that point ???since we are talking about what is greater, stop talking about F1 vs sports cars. we are talking about Eau rouge, in a sports car where aero downforce is paltry compared to the drop forces of turn8 at laguana. AND the delta height vs delta time is also not as great. I didnt do the calculation yet, but willing to bet you that is the case. provide some evidence to the contrary if you have it.
The fact that you have "measurements"of vertical gs,and referring to them, shows you are not understanding what im talking about. we are not talking about bumps in the road compression. im talking about , as i said clearly, "sustained" compression. talk to any race car team in the country, and talk to them about set up at laguna. most all are concerned about bottoming out at turn8, unlike any other track in the world. whether or not you have evidence to contradict what im talking about......... the point is. these forces act on the hubs and can cause pad push back like no other track in the world. (or maybe if you prove me wrong on that claim, a few others) either way, vertical loads like Dave was suggesting is usually not the cause. (bumps, birms,etc)
your turn!
Mk
Mark, aero forces have to do with speed.
T8A at MRLS is UNDER that "aero threshold," as is the Toe at the Glen, in terms of speed. So no aero "aid."
Eau Rouge is a different story. And the combination of downforce, compression and speed all make the forces acting on the car greater, because of it.
Compression is measured in vertical g force, and having terabytes of collected data from a variety of different cars and more than a hundred tracks, I would put several places up against T8A as having at least as much (or more) compression. More than your stated 1.5g (lateral g measured, without a vertical g component, but augmented by that vertical g)...
I knew what you were talking about, but you missed that...
T8A at MRLS is UNDER that "aero threshold," as is the Toe at the Glen, in terms of speed. So no aero "aid."
Eau Rouge is a different story. And the combination of downforce, compression and speed all make the forces acting on the car greater, because of it.
Compression is measured in vertical g force, and having terabytes of collected data from a variety of different cars and more than a hundred tracks, I would put several places up against T8A as having at least as much (or more) compression. More than your stated 1.5g (lateral g measured, without a vertical g component, but augmented by that vertical g)...
I knew what you were talking about, but you missed that...
05-31-2017, 06:18 PM
#192
Rennlist Member
the entire point was that the very high compression, allows for the car to have more lateral gs than it could normally generate on a flat , no elevation change turn. this puts more load on the wheel bearings and hubs and can allow the rotor to move and push the pads back.
If you have never gone to laguna seca, some feel their stomach come up their throat their first time ......like a roller coaster. very unique.
so, let's say im wrong that Laguna is the highest compression lateral g loaded turn......... if it isnt the greatest, its one of the top ones. (for non aero -aided turns)
05-31-2017, 06:29 PM
#193
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Forget it, Mark. It's ONE of the top ones, that's all we said... smh...
05-31-2017, 06:59 PM
#194
Rennlist Member
Mark, aero forces have to do with speed.
T8A at MRLS is UNDER that "aero threshold," as is the Toe at the Glen, in terms of speed. So no aero "aid."
Eau Rouge is a different story. And the combination of downforce, compression and speed all make the forces acting on the car greater, because of it.
Compression is measured in vertical g force, and having terabytes of collected data from a variety of different cars and more than a hundred tracks, I would put several places up against T8A as having at least as much (or more) compression. More than your stated 1.5g (lateral g measured, without a vertical g component, but augmented by that vertical g)...
I knew what you were talking about, but you missed that...
T8A at MRLS is UNDER that "aero threshold," as is the Toe at the Glen, in terms of speed. So no aero "aid."
Eau Rouge is a different story. And the combination of downforce, compression and speed all make the forces acting on the car greater, because of it.
Compression is measured in vertical g force, and having terabytes of collected data from a variety of different cars and more than a hundred tracks, I would put several places up against T8A as having at least as much (or more) compression. More than your stated 1.5g (lateral g measured, without a vertical g component, but augmented by that vertical g)...
I knew what you were talking about, but you missed that...
the corkscrew has about a 50ft change in only 100ft. this is the main point of why the corkscrew has more compression (sustained) than most any other track i can think of.
05-31-2017, 07:10 PM
#195
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you also said there were "plenty of corners greater". show me a few!
you even go so far to mention a specific car, that has never even been to laguna. my bet, and in theory, is that with the extra compression, it should pull more gs in that section of the corkscrew.......do you not agree. (or disagree with the theory or logic?)
Reasons:
1.the drop is greater over a shorter distance
2. the speed is near the same
3. tires grip more with no change in mass of the car, but more downforce (non aero) you know this from tire load sensitivity discussions!
4. then, with regard to the discussion... the forces on mechanics that cause pad knock back, are then greater.
Nope, Mark. I saw 1.55 g sustained at the toe of the boot today in an R7-equipped 964.
There's plenty of corners greater than T8A at Laguna Seca, although that's a good one. I measure 2.25 in a flat bottom forty year old F1 car there. And that is at speeds below the aero threshold.
There's plenty of corners greater than T8A at Laguna Seca, although that's a good one. I measure 2.25 in a flat bottom forty year old F1 car there. And that is at speeds below the aero threshold.