Rotor vibration
#61
Im a one man show at the track , often, so i have to do all my tire changes myself. i work quickly, and this is something I do to save time and is more than adequate as far as torquing accuracy.
so to answer your question... I've checked my work before and its always between 90 and 95ft-lbs .
#62
the rears might be a challenge to get them to temp to bed. however, you can bed the rears on jack stands and using the brakes and throttle. Just go through the normal bedding process on an open road with no traffic and do some 80mph to 40mph slow downs. If you are skilled enough, use left foot braking and some throttle .. makes the process a little easier and less dangerous on the hyway. (you are slowing the car with brakes while keeping the throttle on. the process eliminates dangerous tire grip and slippage on high rate decels). do that 4-6 times and the pads will be bedded enough to safely finish them off on your first lap or two at the track.
#63
As others have mentioned keep the car as stock as possible and get the seat time. When I say stock I mean caliper size and such. Absolutely perform the safety upgrades and items that will increase the longevity of your car. I have seen you post in other threads such as the oil pan, that is absolutely a must have for a track car. Good luck and if you need anything feel free to reach out.
Also, on the safety upgrades, I’m all for them. But my challenge is I still need a back seat at times for when both of my sons are with me. Any ideas on this?
Sump kit ordered and switching to XP9 oil based upon another’s recommendation. PO replaced IMS, RMS and clutch. I’ve replaced AOS (standard one unfortunately), water pump, new Motul600, and moved to spin on oil filter. Any maintenance I’m missing for track prep?
#64
the rears might be a challenge to get them to temp to bed. however, you can bed the rears on jack stands and using the brakes and throttle. Just go through the normal bedding process on an open road with no traffic and do some 80mph to 40mph slow downs. If you are skilled enough, use left foot braking and some throttle .. makes the process a little easier and less dangerous on the hyway. (you are slowing the car with brakes while keeping the throttle on. the process eliminates dangerous tire grip and slippage on high rate decels). do that 4-6 times and the pads will be bedded enough to safely finish them off on your first lap or two at the track.
#65
Thanks Jake! Couple of quick questions. I understand everyone’s point on the r-comps because streets communicate their limits progressively. But what are the disadvantages of upgrading suspension (which is 17 y/o and needs it) or going to bigger brakes in the near future?
Also, on the safety upgrades, I’m all for them. But my challenge is I still need a back seat at times for when both of my sons are with me. Any ideas on this?
Sump kit ordered and switching to XP9 oil based upon another’s recommendation. PO replaced IMS, RMS and clutch. I’ve replaced AOS (standard one unfortunately), water pump, new Motul600, and moved to spin on oil filter. Any maintenance I’m missing for track prep?
Also, on the safety upgrades, I’m all for them. But my challenge is I still need a back seat at times for when both of my sons are with me. Any ideas on this?
Sump kit ordered and switching to XP9 oil based upon another’s recommendation. PO replaced IMS, RMS and clutch. I’ve replaced AOS (standard one unfortunately), water pump, new Motul600, and moved to spin on oil filter. Any maintenance I’m missing for track prep?
Once you have seat time you will know what your car is lacking.
One more point on "better brakes". They will be limited by tire grip. Better tires will generage higher force for which you need a harness to keep you in the seat which goes back to the safety system.
Better seats and harnesses with roll bar was the best upgrade that keeps me planted in the car so I don't have to hold on to the steering wheel for dear life and can focus on what the car is doing. Most importantly have fun!
#66
Thanks Jake! Couple of quick questions. I understand everyone’s point on the r-comps because streets communicate their limits progressively. But what are the disadvantages of upgrading suspension (which is 17 y/o and needs it) or going to bigger brakes in the near future?
Also, on the safety upgrades, I’m all for them. But my challenge is I still need a back seat at times for when both of my sons are with me. Any ideas on this?
Sump kit ordered and switching to XP9 oil based upon another’s recommendation. PO replaced IMS, RMS and clutch. I’ve replaced AOS (standard one unfortunately), water pump, new Motul600, and moved to spin on oil filter. Any maintenance I’m missing for track prep?
Also, on the safety upgrades, I’m all for them. But my challenge is I still need a back seat at times for when both of my sons are with me. Any ideas on this?
Sump kit ordered and switching to XP9 oil based upon another’s recommendation. PO replaced IMS, RMS and clutch. I’ve replaced AOS (standard one unfortunately), water pump, new Motul600, and moved to spin on oil filter. Any maintenance I’m missing for track prep?
Stepping up the larger brakes will slow the car much faster, if you are still on street tires with larger brakes it is possible to overcome the adhesion properties of the tire (locking up the tire). So you will essentially have to use less braking force and therefore teach yourself improper technique.
The same holds true for the suspension. If you upgrade the dampeners and springs you will end up with a stiffer car and have the ability of reaching much higher cornering G's. You will end up having to make a compromise in driving technique to drive at the limit of the inferior tire rather than the limit of the suspension. Now what I will advise is to dial in your alignment as best as possible with that stock suspension, base your alignment on tire wear. As you get closer to the limits of the street tires you will notice that the outer edge of the tires will wear and you will need more camber, this may not be achievable with the stock suspension components so you may need to upgrade something. We would typically recommend adjustable lower control arms and rear toe links, you will then be able to dial in the alignment and maximize tire wear. This will have little impact on your driving technique but will only reduce the cost of the consumables.
I understand your need for the rear seats, and that is a difficult challenge to over come. As much as I don't like them you could install a harness bar, they are fairly straight forward to install and can be removed. You could also install a set of seats with harness's. The seats could also be removed and the stock seats reinstalled. This would increase your work load to get to and from the track but it is certainly possible to do. Unfortunately I really do not have a better answer on how to overcome that challenge. Maybe some other RL members will have a solution. For the best response on this another thread is in order.
Your maintenance prep is right on with what you should be doing. Depending on how old your spark plugs and ignition coils are you may want to replace those.
#68
#69
I've only bedded in one set of pads in my life. A set of Pagids. After that I switched to PFC's on my cars, and have always just put them in (usually oriented correctly), and driven. Never ever had an issue. I recently switched to Carbotech on the Miata, and followed my same procedure, i.e. Swap and go. No issues. Not sure what I am doing wrong.
#70
Staying on a street tire for a few events is definitely the way to go. Once you have those tires squealing and sliding in almost every turn I would say you are ready to step up to something a little more sticky. I typically like to see our customers step into the Toyo R888 or Nitto NT-01 as they are a step up from street tires yet are still very predictable. After you get to the limits of these tires then you are ready for a Hoosier or something of that nature. I like to progressively step our customers up once they reach the limits. I find it is the best scenario that allows the customer to reach the limits of the each tire.
Stepping up the larger brakes will slow the car much faster, if you are still on street tires with larger brakes it is possible to overcome the adhesion properties of the tire (locking up the tire). So you will essentially have to use less braking force and therefore teach yourself improper technique.
The same holds true for the suspension. If you upgrade the dampeners and springs you will end up with a stiffer car and have the ability of reaching much higher cornering G's. You will end up having to make a compromise in driving technique to drive at the limit of the inferior tire rather than the limit of the suspension. Now what I will advise is to dial in your alignment as best as possible with that stock suspension, base your alignment on tire wear. As you get closer to the limits of the street tires you will notice that the outer edge of the tires will wear and you will need more camber, this may not be achievable with the stock suspension components so you may need to upgrade something. We would typically recommend adjustable lower control arms and rear toe links, you will then be able to dial in the alignment and maximize tire wear. This will have little impact on your driving technique but will only reduce the cost of the consumables.
I understand your need for the rear seats, and that is a difficult challenge to over come. As much as I don't like them you could install a harness bar, they are fairly straight forward to install and can be removed. You could also install a set of seats with harness's. The seats could also be removed and the stock seats reinstalled. This would increase your work load to get to and from the track but it is certainly possible to do. Unfortunately I really do not have a better answer on how to overcome that challenge. Maybe some other RL members will have a solution. For the best response on this another thread is in order.
Your maintenance prep is right on with what you should be doing. Depending on how old your spark plugs and ignition coils are you may want to replace those.
Stepping up the larger brakes will slow the car much faster, if you are still on street tires with larger brakes it is possible to overcome the adhesion properties of the tire (locking up the tire). So you will essentially have to use less braking force and therefore teach yourself improper technique.
The same holds true for the suspension. If you upgrade the dampeners and springs you will end up with a stiffer car and have the ability of reaching much higher cornering G's. You will end up having to make a compromise in driving technique to drive at the limit of the inferior tire rather than the limit of the suspension. Now what I will advise is to dial in your alignment as best as possible with that stock suspension, base your alignment on tire wear. As you get closer to the limits of the street tires you will notice that the outer edge of the tires will wear and you will need more camber, this may not be achievable with the stock suspension components so you may need to upgrade something. We would typically recommend adjustable lower control arms and rear toe links, you will then be able to dial in the alignment and maximize tire wear. This will have little impact on your driving technique but will only reduce the cost of the consumables.
I understand your need for the rear seats, and that is a difficult challenge to over come. As much as I don't like them you could install a harness bar, they are fairly straight forward to install and can be removed. You could also install a set of seats with harness's. The seats could also be removed and the stock seats reinstalled. This would increase your work load to get to and from the track but it is certainly possible to do. Unfortunately I really do not have a better answer on how to overcome that challenge. Maybe some other RL members will have a solution. For the best response on this another thread is in order.
Your maintenance prep is right on with what you should be doing. Depending on how old your spark plugs and ignition coils are you may want to replace those.
also, forget about the hoosier route unless you are trying to take off tenths of seconds off your lap times. R888s as suggested can be used on the street and track, as well as have a real racing tire feel to them. a LOT more grip compared to any street tire. this tire will be durable and allow you too progress as a driver to a much higher level. they are MUCH cheaper to run and last 4-5 times longer than the Hoosier would , and marginal advantages when you are DE'iing or just starting to time trial at the track. as you get more serious, a shaved version of the tire from a racing shop, will be a logical next step in performance. (where it comes new looking like a slick, and the tread is not that visible)
#71
OK. Great info. The Hoosiers I have have about 10-12 heat cycles on them, 5 of which were AutoX. The way it was explained to me is that they would be a couple of seconds slower than a fresh set but good for learning to use slicks. True or false? The tires are still in good shape including the sides.
Im going to be getting 3-4 days a month in between DE and AutoX so hope to progress past my current level quickly. But I will get my local chief instructor's opinion of my driving prior to moving past my PSS's (which I still love.)
The R-888 look really good and come in the size I need. They will be my first actual r-compound purchase when I'm ready.
Im going to be getting 3-4 days a month in between DE and AutoX so hope to progress past my current level quickly. But I will get my local chief instructor's opinion of my driving prior to moving past my PSS's (which I still love.)
The R-888 look really good and come in the size I need. They will be my first actual r-compound purchase when I'm ready.
#72
OK. Great info. The Hoosiers I have have about 10-12 heat cycles on them, 5 of which were AutoX. The way it was explained to me is that they would be a couple of seconds slower than a fresh set but good for learning to use slicks. True or false? The tires are still in good shape including the sides.
Im going to be getting 3-4 days a month in between DE and AutoX so hope to progress past my current level quickly. But I will get my local chief instructor's opinion of my driving prior to moving past my PSS's (which I still love.)
The R-888 look really good and come in the size I need. They will be my first actual r-compound purchase when I'm ready.
Im going to be getting 3-4 days a month in between DE and AutoX so hope to progress past my current level quickly. But I will get my local chief instructor's opinion of my driving prior to moving past my PSS's (which I still love.)
The R-888 look really good and come in the size I need. They will be my first actual r-compound purchase when I'm ready.
as a note: When people talk about forgiveness of a street tire vs a race tire (and you may already know this) but the difference is in the slip angle effectiveness. this means, when you over drive the fronts or the rears, it will break free and could slide out, without as much feel or warning with a race /DOT tire. on a street tire, that angle is greater, so you will get a push or a loose feeling that you can control and reign back in easier. once the DOT slick starts to slide, you might not be able to correct and save it as easy.
#73
Just a small note, maybe a little late as the boys have moved from bolt torque to tires. When you tighten the bolts, you are trying to generate a preload. The preload is the crucial value and can only be approximated using a torque as the toque must stretch the bolt and also overcome friction in the threads and between the bolt and wheel.
#74
Just a small note, maybe a little late as the boys have moved from bolt torque to tires. When you tighten the bolts, you are trying to generate a preload. The preload is the crucial value and can only be approximated using a torque as the toque must stretch the bolt and also overcome friction in the threads and between the bolt and wheel.
#75
you are not wrong in anyway in post 40. my only contribution here is that the torque on the studs holding the wheel should be even to avoid the potential for rotor warping.. repeated higher than torque spec use can damage wheels of lower quality. using steel lugs increases the torque ability and many use air tool guns which can increase the torque on the lugs and usually if a torque wrench is used, the min values are fine, but the max is never checked. (that can be a problem)
my use of 5% lower than the spec, is not dangerous , nor have i EVER had a lug nut be removed with less than the torque it was set at... EVER , and thats 20 years of doing this. the spec is designed to insure that over time, and many heat cycles that the lugs cant come loose. at the track we care about the correct stretch of the stud and proper compression force on the wheel face.
at 5% less its well with in safety ranges, and my reasoning is that its just a little easier on the wheels and on my arms. I dont think anyone should lose sleep over a lug tightened at 90ftlbs vs 95ft lbs at the track. the lugs are not going anywhere.
but not to get too derailed by the person that first brought up the correction, yes, 96ft-lbs is the spec.... but that's for aluminum lugs on steel studs.
i would tend to guess that there is more stretch with a steel lug at that torque than with the aluminum lug nut do to the softer metal deformation.... no? maybe not. maybe the spec is the value it is because the aluminum nut can deform and come loose. either way, we are shaving hairs here.
my use of 5% lower than the spec, is not dangerous , nor have i EVER had a lug nut be removed with less than the torque it was set at... EVER , and thats 20 years of doing this. the spec is designed to insure that over time, and many heat cycles that the lugs cant come loose. at the track we care about the correct stretch of the stud and proper compression force on the wheel face.
at 5% less its well with in safety ranges, and my reasoning is that its just a little easier on the wheels and on my arms. I dont think anyone should lose sleep over a lug tightened at 90ftlbs vs 95ft lbs at the track. the lugs are not going anywhere.
but not to get too derailed by the person that first brought up the correction, yes, 96ft-lbs is the spec.... but that's for aluminum lugs on steel studs.
i would tend to guess that there is more stretch with a steel lug at that torque than with the aluminum lug nut do to the softer metal deformation.... no? maybe not. maybe the spec is the value it is because the aluminum nut can deform and come loose. either way, we are shaving hairs here.