Veloce Raptor

On a track he has never been to and knows nothing about.

linzman

Dear Mods,
much like the new SOLD tag that can be put on ads in the classified forum, can we get a Kiborted tag?

mark kibort

I entered my personal view based on little information other than how long spinning took him to slow down and the impact speed. and yes, you can scrub 70mph from 150 to near 80mph in 6-7 seconds with downshifts not to mention the turning scrubbing forces which are even more powerful. I wouldnt bet either way, but just pointing out some facts.

We all know that the exploded rotor would render the brakes inoperative.. that's why downshifting is so important as a braking force, or to enact a spin as Johnny did.

mark kibort

we are talking about a techniuque that can save one of your students cars or lives pal, why not dummy up and learn about it.
it is not the track, its the technique. brakes fail, quick full blip throttle downshifts to help slow the car and keep it under control while you steer out of danger. ive already prooved that this works at a turn similar to turn 7 in approach speed and turn in speed. Ive had brake lines explode and fail twice in my career. one time i handled it like johnny, when there was not enough room to downshift, so induced spin... the next was with the bip downshift and slow to a speed that allowed me to save the turn (and the car) from incident.
Open your eyes Boy!!

Veloce Raptor

We know .

mark kibort

you have NO information here. you are advising something that is dangerous.
ive been through this before. my advice is sound. leave in gear, dont push clutch in but to downshift, and match revs, and ride it out!
in this OP situation, it would have likely reduced the amount of frontal body damage from running through a gate.

Dave what you fail to understand, is that V8 engine braking, along with aero and rolling friction can take 130mph to 60mph in near 6 seconds with NO brakes
with out engine braking, the car can travel very fast for more than double that distance and time! is that what you want when you have no brakes? to go further and faster for longer????? if so , coach away..... If NOT, take my advice. it will help... trust me!

TXE36

Why? Be specific. Have you driven Sebring?

-Mike

mark kibort

Why? Because i have done this before. studied the exact incident and have quite a few years of experience racing and drving over you. is that specific enough for you?

Why are you so caught up on the actual track? this is a fundamental technique. That turn is no different than any other old bumpy turn at a track near you. same rules apply. watch the video again and picture what a couple of downshifts would do. the car would have slowed in a hurry, without drama!
being bumpy is MORE the reason to leave it in gear for stability and control. putting the clutch in and coasting is a little insane. blipping and downshifting, with or without brakes is a racing slow down fundamental.

TXE36

Ummm, no. You haven't done it before and you have no clue how much more experience racing and driving you have over me. You are just some dude on the internet, as are all the posters here. What this means you actually have to provide argument and evidence to support your position. Trust me? Not a freaking chance.

"Trust me" is simply another way of saying "I got nothin".

Mark, you are old enough to know better, and if you have all of this "experience" you should be smart enough to know there are things about this turn you do not understand simply because of the fact you have never been there. Sheesh.

Having the rear end locking up and skipping doesn't sound all that great to me. Lots of stuff around there to hit.

Do you really think your Rennlist Rants (TM) convince anybody of anything other than the level of your maturity?

-Mike

DTMiller

I've never been to Laguna Seca, but I have some corkscrew concepts for your consideration.

[reserved for response to rant about how this is basic stuff and we're just trying to save lives here people]

jlanka

I'm a novice so don't shoot me. Just looking for definitive reasons why it would have been bad to blip downshift in an attempt to slow the car in this situation. I would like to learn from this if I ever get info a brake loss.

Thanks

jscott82

The superlatives "NEVER" and "ALWAYS" are the problem.

In my 993 if I'm in 4th and have brake failure, 3rd gear is an easy downshift and would probably work anywhere..

If I'm in 3rd... A drop to 2nd (especially with my "on/off" clutch) is a bit more dicey... and may want to think a little harder about that..

At the end of the day, you had a pro driver in the heat of the moment (with all the facts laid out in front of him) make a choice... He made it through with minimal damage and no one got hurt.. I call that a resounding success!!

jscott82

The only "Always" is "Keep Driving The Car" never give up... Even without brakes, you still have tools in your toolbox.. Downshifts, Swerve, Spin, glancing blow to a wall, glancing blow to a competitor, there are many ways to slow the car, use them all until the car stops moving....

edit: To Answer the direct question - If you are already redlined and don't do anything to slow the car before a downshift you are guaranteed to grenade the motor... If the motor locks up, the (rear) wheels lockup... With locked rears, the car is VERY difficult to control. Even if you don't grenade the motor, you will not be able to modulate the braking effort and risk locking (or excessively sliding) the rears... Its a tool in the toolbox, but its not the only one...

Veloce Raptor

In many cases it can be a good idea to help slow the car before impact or sliding into gravel, as with the Nissan at COTA. The challenge at Sebring T7 is that the brake zone is exceptionally bumpy, and has concrete walls VERY close on each side. The track isn't particularly wide there either. As Frank indicated earlier in the thread, we both witnessed 2 beautiful Cup cars totalled when they were upset by the bumps under braking and snap-spun into the walls. one rolled nearly over a wall. So imagine no brakes and just trying to use the rear tires for slowing over extreme bumps by rapidly downshifting--when there is already a MAJOR difference between road speed and engine speed. Not only would the engine spin to and beyond redline, but the tiniest rear grab or momentary lockup over the bumps is likely to cause immediate loss of control.

mark kibort

Mike, ive been racing for over 20 years. this kind of stuff is elementary. there is no chance of the rear locking up on a blip downshift, unles you dont do the blip!
a blip downshift matches the revs to the currecnt speed and even if it isnt exact, you can have a soft clutch release to not slip the rear tires.. this would be like if you were at redline when you applied the brakes, for which that technique would have to be used. (this was not the case for me at laguna nor the camaro at turn 7 sebring)


ive already drvien a 1:48 around laguna seca with ease without ANY brakes! , which includes the corkscrew . funny you mention it, because it is up hill, it responds very well to blib downshift, but if you had a failure going into the braking zone at moderate speeds, you are pretty much out of luck there.. there is no run off, time or distance to allow you to bleed off speed as there is in the faster turn 2 area.

so at the corkscrew approach, there is not much you can do if approaching the corkscrew at race speeds., but absolutely blip downshift to help a little, to spin or to slow. your choice.

there is NOT one logical reason the terrorists Dave and Peter can provide to not perform this basica safety control task. always leave your car in gear upon brake failure and try and blip and shift. not bang and slip the rear tires, but blip, rev match and shift and release throttle to get maximium rear wheel engine braking. . it will help with controlling the car during the slow down and help with any manuvering you might need for evasive actions as welll.

going into a turn in neutral, is always a bad idea... worse when you have no brakes!

just a few more thoughts on the subject