Otto Mechanic

Inadequate in what way? How is a nomex driving suit in any way superior to a nomex flight suit? Honest question, I've seen both and can't see a difference in specs, construction or performance?

You're insinuating a nomex flight suit isn't intended to be used as a fire suit? That it isn't purpose made as a fire suit? I don't understand that.

No, you're wrong about that. Very wrong. I've never seen a C-141 with ejection seats. Ever. That's only one example. And we do wear fire suits on C-141s, C-130s, I could go on and on. The majority of all military aircraft are not equipped with ejection seats. We wear fire suits on all of them.

I've also been through ejection seat training and I'm familiar with the statistics. Punching out of a plane is the last thing you do when faced with certain death. They work, but they don't work all the time. And yes, we are getting off topic now, I think perhaps we'll need to agree to disagree on this subject since it really isn't relevant to the OP's question.

Berringer

Jane?

Otto Mechanic

A good discipline to have I think. I also think most DE participants do a lot of their own work and self-inspection. One of the things I believe from personal experience is it's very hard to walk away from a $600+ entry fee because you might have a coolant problem. Entries are usually non-refundable so the system actually encourages people to show up on track with marginal equipment. I've done it (walked away from $600, not "shown up with marginal equipment") but it isn't easy and, as you've mentioned, it takes a lot of discipline.

That could be changed I suppose.

gbuff

These days I get really nervous when I see cars that look "questionable" either due to age, general appearance, etc as something quite similar to this incident involved me a few years back. An old water-cooled Porsche lost all of its coolant in front of me at one of the worst places on the track; no slippery flag was displayed so I suspected nothing. I barrelled into the turn, completely lost it and slid into the tire wall, and then the car behind me hit the same slickness and slid into me. I spoke to the CI and he did the same with the driver of the leaky car and, to that driver's credit (whom I've driven with in various groups for years and is a great guy) he retired the car from track duty.

Then, last year I attended a private event with many older cars, two of which proceeded to relieve themselves of all their coolant on the starting grid BEFORE hitting the track. Of course, new/newer cars are not exempt as I have also, while on track, looked in my rear-view mirror to see the nearly-new car directly behind me billowing white smoke out the back with the driver seemingly completely unaware he had a problem......

So despite taking great measures to make yourself as "safe" as possible, at day's end you're on a racetrack where anything can happen to anybody at any time. Having said that, the onus is on each driver to maintain their car, mods or not, to the nth degree. I have added incentive to do so as I do many days per year and am one of the rarities in that I drive the (street-legal) car to/from the events so I don't have a trailer to load into if something happens; plus I want to make the next event!

Finally, as an aside I'd like to add that at the time of my aforementioned incident I was bailed out by a fellow driver at the event who completely took charge of the proceedings i.e. helped me load all my track stuff into his vehicle, took me back to the hotel to gather my belongings, then had the absolute goodness of heart to insist on driving the nearly 3-hour trip to get me home.....you've heard it a million times: it's the people that truly make these events, and to this person I will be eternally grateful.

Gary

CrookedCommie

People really do this? I do my own self inspection because the mechanic isn't the one doing 140mph down the back straight - the brakes better work and it better not be leaking coolant. And if I hit somebody else's leaking coolant in the brake zone I'm going to be really, really pissed.

Otto Mechanic

Really walk away from a $600 entry? I don't personally know of others, but I have. What I was trying to say is the system doesn't exactly discourage a person from showing up with a marginal car since entries are non-refundable.

I was insinuating that the incidence of on-track mechanical failures that cause safety problems might be reduced if that policy were changed. As far as I know, there isn't a penalty for having a mechanical failure on the track, but there is a penalty for not bringing a car that has a known problem to the track, because you sacrifice your entry fee.

Perhaps you can see where this is going?

linzman

If anyone brings a poorly prepped car to a DE because $600 is too hard to walk away from, maybe they should find another hobby. Because if you believe that putting your own life, as well as all the other drivers and the club that sponsors the event at risk is worth $600, then you're an ..........

As far as giving money back for car problems, that would be very hard to enforce. Say the weather forecast calls for bad storms, what's to keep everyone signed up for the event from claiming they had car issues and demanding a refund. Are you gonna ask for proof? Where do you draw the line? The sponsoring club would be out a lot of money, and possibly never sponsor another event.

If your car may possibly not be in good enough repair to do the event, DONT SIGN UP until it is, or take the chance on being out $600.

Otto Mechanic

Why do I have to keep repeating this?

I don't believe that. I brought up a causal relationship that's absolutely burned into the system. That's my opinion, not my religion.

I actually have walked away from a $600 entry. Did I not make that clear the first three times?

Right. And funeral arrangements are easy?

We were discussing safety, not the associated difficulties. I presented a systematic problem that encourages unsafe behavior. If you believe it has no effect on safety then please argue the point? Unfortunately, saying "it would be hard" doesn't really advance the topic much.

I consider it a contributing factor.

Otto Mechanic

In the spirit of being pro-active on the subject instead of just claiming it would be too hard, off the top of my head I'd suggest a person who wished to disqualify and have their entry fees refunded simply be required to show up for tech inspection and demonstrate the failure?

Sure, you might have to trailer the car to and from the track. Probably less than your entry fee by a factor of five or so, but consider the advantage to the club? You don't have a busted car on the track and you have one less car. Everyone is safer.

Let's think about this? We trust people to self inspect and approve their own cars. There's no penalty for being wrong. But we wouldn't trust people to bring their cars in and let us know they weren't qualified and shouldn't be approved? How does that make any sense? We have tech inspectors on site. People that actually know when they're looking at a real mechanical problem.

The system is set up to encourage optimism on the driver's part. The entry fee isn't coming back. The car is there. Maybe nothing's really wrong? Maybe it will do fine? Why not take the chance?

This is a systematic problem and there is a fix for it.

dogger15

Here's my honest answer based on testing data and objective observation:

My Alpinestars SFI 3.2A/5 driving suit has a TPP rating of 19 which buys me 10 seconds of egress time before 2nd degree burns. My Navy issue CWP 27/P flight suit has a TPP rating of 11 which buys me almost 6 seconds before 2nd degree burns. I'll take that extra 4 seconds. Advantage driving suit. My driving suit has three layers of nomex, my flight suit has one. Advantage driving suit. My driving suit is constructed to allow the fabric to breathe, greatly reducing body heat build up. My flight suit does just the opposite. Advantage driving suit. My driving suit makes me look cool. Wearing my flight suit in a race car makes me look like a dork. Advantage driving suit.

I'm not insinuating anything, I'm telling you current military flight suits are not purpose made fire suits. The current flight suit is an evolution of the flight suits worn dating back to WWII. Those suits were made of cotton. Pilots wore them topped off with a leather jacket and life was good until things went wrong. You may not be old enough to remember the Orange (safety) flight suits of the fifties and early sixties. Those suits were made out of the lightweight, new miracle fabric; Nylon. Nylon worked great in a fire. As a result of that fiasco the military started using flame retardant fabrics for flight suits in the mid 60s, that's the first time the ubiquitous flight suit became fire resistant. So "purpose made as a fire suit", not even close.

If you still have a clearance, I suggest you check aircraft totals by type. Fixed wing strike and tactical aircraft outnumber support (cargo, tankers, C&C, etc.) by more than two to one. Oh, and don't forget, with the new T6 rolled out, nearly every fixed wing military trainer is equipped with an ejection seat.

With that said, I agree, enough with the thread drift. If you see a need to carry on with this debate, feel free to PM me.

Otto Mechanic

OK. You win.

For those following on? Buy a Nomex flight suit on eBay and ignore this. The author offers no verification and compares his 3 layer suit to the performance of a single layer suit. Why? Because he assumes you're stupid.

A fire suit is better than no fire suit. Two layers are better than one, three are better than two. Nomex is Nomex, there's nnothing magical about Nomex in a driving suit; no difference at all in performance, since Nomex always does exactly the same thing.

And yes, I would be very tempted to describe anyone who deliberately advised anyone against using affordable safety equipment on a public forum aimed expressly at making technical information available to the novice in a cost competitive fashion a prime example of an engorged male member.

Sincerely,

winders

If I were going to buy a suit for DE events, I would be a suit designed for the purpose. Why would I buy a flight suit? I don't get it.

ProCoach

No SFI or FIA rating or credentials on a flight suit. If you can't race in it, why buy less for DE?

docwyte

The refund policy can easily be fixed. No need to bring your broken car to get checked. Just give people a credit for the next event.

Ie, if *anything* pops up and you can't make the event, whether its mechanical, work conflict, whatever, just let the person keep the entry fee as a credit in the clubs account and use it for their next event.

There. Fixed.

mglobe