Hatzenbach

I know there had been a similar thread some time ago, but I can't find it anymore, so sorry for kind-a reopening it this way. I am writing this in a somber mood after last weekend's deadly accident in B'Willow.
We're at the end of 2015 and I heard of at least two (or 3) deadly accidents during DEs. I have 60+ DE days under my belt and the "worst" that ever happened to me was a controlled drive off when I overcooked Sunset in Buttonwillow.
Nevertheless I start to wonder if the risk is worth it. We (the typical DE guy like me) all sit in cars that a couple fo years ago would have been on-par with real race cars, meaning we achieve speeds durin our DE days, that are - well - very fast.
I know on this site we have "weekend racers" like me, semi-pros and full pros so I'd like to hear some opinions.
My DE car is my daily driver, that means I am limited with the safety options (I don't want to modify my DD to race car safety specs).
I have Porsche GT2 bucket seats, BK harness bar and use a 6 pt harness with HANS.
That's about it (from a safety standpoint, besides clothing).
I don't want to put in a half-cage as this is my DD and I am not sure that my noggin would be safe w/o a helmet.
Of course no further side impact.

So is this "safe enough"? If I had the same impact as the unfortunate M3 this weekend I probably would be toast, if I mess up turn 8 in Thunderhill there's a good chance I could flip the car, w/o a half cage that might be the end of it as well. So what is "safe enough"?

Opinions? Suggestions? Flames?

roketman

Know your limits.Take meticulous care of your car mechanically.
And yes a roll bar or cage is always safer.But safety for the most part is in your hands.

1990nein

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ProCoach

Good answers, so far...

pu911rsr

As someone who has raced and run DE's for many years - I can say I'm no longer comfortable driving street cars on race tracks, I'd much rather have a full cage, race seats, and belts. Today's cars are so damn fast compared to what used to run years ago. I'll agree that controlling your own pace and having the best gear available all helps but if someone drops a load of oil or antifreeze in front of you being in control of anything goes out the window. The other thing you can control is where you drive - some tracks are much safer than others. Let's face it you can get killed in your street car anywhere anytime- it's a risk we all take w/o thinking about many times/day.
Phil

NotTheStig

I personally would not use a 6 point without a cage. If you were to flip with no cage with the sub belt attached, your body will not be able to slide down so there is chance of compressing your spine.

audipwr1

I would change your GT2 bucket for the sparco seat with removable halo ears

I would drive below your limit. If you get bored of that buy racecar - even just to DE or TT

DE and club racing are pretty safe sports if you maximize safety gear imo

LuigiVampa

I would say that it all depends on your speed, driving style (7/10 versus 10/10), and risk you are willing to accept.

A street car is going to be a compromise and a compromise is generally a weakness.

The 944 below has a half cage because it is still street legal. After a checkout ride at a PCA event with a very experienced club racer he told me that I should not drive this car on the track again without getting a full cage. Not because I was unsafe or anything like that - it was because I was driving the car very fast for what it was. Sobering moment.

I bought my fulling caged Cayman a couple of months later and upgraded its safety features by adding fire suppression.

Bottom line - the only real solution to managing track safety to the best of your ability is to buy a dedicated fully caged track car. Anything less is a compromise.

Lastly, this is not to say that people starting out, or people who drive 7/10 or less can't enjoy the track in a street car. I'm just saying that if safety is paramount that is the direction to go.

Steve113

"I personally would not use a 6 point without a cage. If you were to flip with no cage with the sub belt attached, your body will not be able to slide down so there is chance of compressing your spine. "

Not sure whats more likely to kill you compressed roof from flipping or not being able to have a Hans on because of not installing a 6 point harness. My money however is on not having a Hans. I have a 6 point in every car that I track. Caged street cars don't work well on the street when no helmet is worn

I guess the safest bet is to have a dedicated DE car that's not driven on the street. But that changes lots of other aspects

HoBoJoe

As your speed increases so should your safety equipment.

porschedog

Porsche's World Tour lets you take box-stock cars out on the road course, as do the Hooked On Driving and other similar groups for DE days.
DE is not racing (something many guys in Corvettes fail to grasp), so any well-set-up car should be fine, theoretically.

docwyte

There gets to be a fine line when you're still wanting to drive the car on the street. My track LSx/951 has a Hanksville custom welded rollbar, Recaro SPG's and 6 point harnesses with welded mounts and a HANS. This is the minimal setup that I'm comfortable with running on track. It's a safe setup for the street but is still lacking on the track when you get into higher run groups and are really carrying speed.

I was comfortable with my setup until I got collected by a Factory 5 Cobra replica at the track a few seasons ago. Luckily I heard his tires screaming and I stopped my turn in and stayed wide in the corner, that made him impact my drivers rear quarter/bumper spinning me out vs hitting me in the drivers door.

When I saw the video of the event I was a bit shaken as I don't have door bars etc on my rollbar, it's just a back half. I've personally been struggling with adding the front half of the cage to the rollbar as I'll then be uncomfortable driving the car on the street. I don't have a trailer and I do like taking the car to non track PCA events as well. It's a compromise and you have to decide which way you're more comfortable with.

The other point is that in a DE you shouldn't be on the wicked edge of adhesion. You should always leave yourself enough leeway to be able to avoid an incident if the unexpected happens. Like coming up on a car moving quite a bit slower than you expect, coming around a blind corner to find a car spun out, debris etc on the track, etc, etc. Racing is where you push, DE is where you incrementally add tasks to learn...

Gary R.

I would install a roll bar with padding and get the seat with removable halo if you need to run a street car at speed. That combined with what you already have will minimize your risk as much as possible. Next step is a fully set up race car, or quitting the sport.

Hatzenbach

Yeah,

thanks everyone for all the good comments.
That above about sums it up

I consider the risk of hitting a stationary object at speed MUCH higher than flipping the car, so running w/o HANS is not an option for me. So half cage comes next.
I like all the comments about controlling your speed, but heck we've all been there, sometimes there are the "what was I thinking" moments, which are part of life....

Mahler9th

I think it is hard to pinpoint "safe enough."

In the olden days, there was a different natural progression, as the cars weren't as capable of multi-year, multi-event DE driving without great expense.. And there weren't as many opportunities to drive. And there were fewer tracks-- many were still "old school" in terms of what we consider safe now.

And a bunch of other things were different. Many folks with multi-year involvement changed from street cars with a range of modifications to dedicated track cars with roll bars and cages.

When I first came to CA, I had done a PCA few track events in a bone stock 944 in other parts of the country. I joined the GGR. At that time, the class and rules structure was such that if you changed the suspension by a certain amount (e.g., stiffer springs in my 944) you were in a class that had to have a roll bar or cage after two initial events. And you had to wear a racing suit after a couple of events. This by itself created a path in terms of vehicle safety.

The tracks around here were Laguna and Sears Point. The old Sears Point. Six people were killed at Sears Point in 1998 alone.

In those days, DE was fueled by enthusiasm, et cetera. In these days, capitalism plays a greater role, and folks running events want/need cars.

If I was committed to running a modern car these days, say a 997, and multiple times per year at the tracks around here, I would run a racing seat, not a GT2 seat. Its trivial to change seats back and forth. I am not sure whether I'd choose a seat with a halo-- that would depend on some specific variables.

If I decided I needed roll over protection in the form of a roll bar, I'd pay a visit to TC Design in Campbell.

And most importantly, I'd work very very hard to establish and maintain a focus on the craft as if I was trying to develop into a pro driver. Sure I would try to have as much fun as possible, but I would focus on developing experience and skills far beyond what many DE participants target. And I would try to pick events with a high percentage of participants that were focused on the same set of ideals/standards.

To me this is tantamount.

The internet has created many "truths" and "hereos" and new ways for people to connect with like-minded friends via social media. In some ways it is harder to find real truths and folks absolutely focused on the craft that aren't necessarily planning to go wheel-to-wheel.

During my nearly 30 years with this "hobby," I have found that events and folks with this type of mindset are the people with whom I have most in common and enjoy most on the track and in the paddock.