Thoughts on HPDE & Safety from Ross Bentley
08-12-2015, 11:17 PM
#46
Matt,
Stop being so melodramatic. Not everyone is up in arms. Nor have I seen comments necessarily against slowing things down.
To be effective, you would need to slow down faster cars, like the GT3 or McLaren, everywhere...not just on the straights. Because I can almost guarantee that most incidents happen in the corners. How do you do that AND keep the owners of the cars engaged and not feeling like they are being treated like children?
When an instructor is in the car, it is the instructors job to keep the driver under control. If the instructor is unable to do so, he should get the driver off the track for a discussion. If that doesn't help, the driver should be removed from the event.
Once the driver advances to the point of driving by himself, you are right back the potential of the car versus the standard street safety equipment problem.
So, maybe a partial solution is to have speed limits on the straights for drivers in the lower groups. I don't see how you could have speed limits in the advanced groups and keep those drivers happy. Of course, many drivers will want to be put in these advanced groups to avoid the speed limit even though they are not qualified. I don't see temporary chicanes as practical. They are too easy to displace.
Ultimately, you can't require roll cages, 6 point belts, and head and neck devices for these faster cars. For some, they drive the car to the track and the mods would make driving the car on the street impracticable and possibly unsafe. For others, they do not want to modify the car from stock.
Stop being so melodramatic. Not everyone is up in arms. Nor have I seen comments necessarily against slowing things down.
To be effective, you would need to slow down faster cars, like the GT3 or McLaren, everywhere...not just on the straights. Because I can almost guarantee that most incidents happen in the corners. How do you do that AND keep the owners of the cars engaged and not feeling like they are being treated like children?
When an instructor is in the car, it is the instructors job to keep the driver under control. If the instructor is unable to do so, he should get the driver off the track for a discussion. If that doesn't help, the driver should be removed from the event.
Once the driver advances to the point of driving by himself, you are right back the potential of the car versus the standard street safety equipment problem.
So, maybe a partial solution is to have speed limits on the straights for drivers in the lower groups. I don't see how you could have speed limits in the advanced groups and keep those drivers happy. Of course, many drivers will want to be put in these advanced groups to avoid the speed limit even though they are not qualified. I don't see temporary chicanes as practical. They are too easy to displace.
Ultimately, you can't require roll cages, 6 point belts, and head and neck devices for these faster cars. For some, they drive the car to the track and the mods would make driving the car on the street impracticable and possibly unsafe. For others, they do not want to modify the car from stock.
I believe majority of the people in the early stages of performance driving go into survival instinct mode (heart rate skyrockets, lose control of fine motor skills, adrenaline kick, etc.) when the car behaves abnormally which is generally the opposite of what you want. Similar to the target fixation crashes so common in motorcycling for beginners. The result is an avoidable crash that could range in severity.
Getting these drivers more comfortable and confident with an out of shape car would got a long way towards making sure they minimize the chances making the situation worse if/when the need arises.
Expecting people to go full on safety before they even hit the track for their first time is a sure way to kill the hobby though. I agree there.
08-12-2015, 11:31 PM
#47
A graduation system could work where students first learn car control before heading out to the "big" track. Perhaps a wet surface to force them into understeer/oversteer/spin situations to make them aware of what actually happens when something goes wrong.
I believe majority of the people in the early stages of performance driving go into survival instinct mode (heart rate skyrockets, lose control of fine motor skills, adrenaline kick, etc.) when the car behaves abnormally which is generally the opposite of what you want. Similar to the target fixation crashes so common in motorcycling for beginners. The result is an avoidable crash that could range in severity.
Getting these drivers more comfortable and confident with an out of shape car would got a long way towards making sure they minimize the chances making the situation worse if/when the need arises.
Expecting people to go full on safety before they even hit the track for their first time is a sure way to kill the hobby though. I agree there.
I believe majority of the people in the early stages of performance driving go into survival instinct mode (heart rate skyrockets, lose control of fine motor skills, adrenaline kick, etc.) when the car behaves abnormally which is generally the opposite of what you want. Similar to the target fixation crashes so common in motorcycling for beginners. The result is an avoidable crash that could range in severity.
Getting these drivers more comfortable and confident with an out of shape car would got a long way towards making sure they minimize the chances making the situation worse if/when the need arises.
Expecting people to go full on safety before they even hit the track for their first time is a sure way to kill the hobby though. I agree there.
On the flip side, I would imagine that some people with autocross experience don't realize how different it is to correct at 100 MPH versus 60 MPH. So there may be a higher level of comfort on the big track than there should be. This certainly could bite someone in the butt. Any trade off here is worth it, though!
08-13-2015, 12:52 AM
#48
I think modern cars are much safer. Given a 991 vs a 930 in a yellow run group, I'd pick the 991 to be in hands down. It's up to the instructor to control the student. I think we're really talking about how to deal with problem students - that's what keeps me up at night. It's not easy as an instructor to fix an attitude issue, and it's not easy to ask someone to leave. It it were, there would be fewer examples of flat out threads.
An no one is talking about mechanical endurance and condition of a vehicle. Bad things can happen, but there are cars that have a higher probability of dropping oil or blowing a coolant line (997 GT3....for example, but it can be addressed and should be mandatory).
Fix these two things and we can take a big chunk of the risk out of the sport without hurting it as much as turning it into an alternative to scrapbooking.
An no one is talking about mechanical endurance and condition of a vehicle. Bad things can happen, but there are cars that have a higher probability of dropping oil or blowing a coolant line (997 GT3....for example, but it can be addressed and should be mandatory).
Fix these two things and we can take a big chunk of the risk out of the sport without hurting it as much as turning it into an alternative to scrapbooking.
08-13-2015, 03:01 AM
#49
Agree that requiring safety systems for beginner HPDE would slowly kill the sport... and eventually club racing.
I bought my first Porsche (not my current car) in 2008. Didn't participate in HPDE until 2011. I'd kind of heard/read about taking Porsches to racetracks, but I didn't even know what HANS, race seat, roll cage, harnesses, etc., were until much later.
Had PCA or some other organization required harnesses, roll cage, etc., to even start participating in HPDE, I highly doubt I would've tried it in 2011 and I suspect that many, many others (majority IMO) would never try it either.
I mean, how do you know that you're a "true fan of the sport" until you at least try it a few times? So I need to significantly modify my STREET CAR at $$$ before I can even try it out? Most newbies would stay away.
Requiring all safety systems in all intermediate and advanced groups is a little iffy too (highly encourage, yes). I have an essentially stock car that I track frequently but also drive on the street a lot. I'm personally lucky in that Boxster Spyders come with factory roll bars and stock GT2 bucket seats allow for harnesses and HANS. But what about all the other cars that don't have such stock equipment? They have to turn their cars into track cars or semi-track cars to be able to continue their hobby??
I began instructing this year and I must say that I'm thankful for today's stability management systems for keeping my butt relatively safe(r) in the right seat. Lean on them? No good. But to have it as a safety net? The selfish passenger in me thinks it's a good thing, i.e. I don't think I'd be comfortable telling my students to turn it off unless I deem the student to be truly ready.
I bought my first Porsche (not my current car) in 2008. Didn't participate in HPDE until 2011. I'd kind of heard/read about taking Porsches to racetracks, but I didn't even know what HANS, race seat, roll cage, harnesses, etc., were until much later.
Had PCA or some other organization required harnesses, roll cage, etc., to even start participating in HPDE, I highly doubt I would've tried it in 2011 and I suspect that many, many others (majority IMO) would never try it either.I mean, how do you know that you're a "true fan of the sport" until you at least try it a few times? So I need to significantly modify my STREET CAR at $$$ before I can even try it out? Most newbies would stay away.
Requiring all safety systems in all intermediate and advanced groups is a little iffy too (highly encourage, yes). I have an essentially stock car that I track frequently but also drive on the street a lot. I'm personally lucky in that Boxster Spyders come with factory roll bars and stock GT2 bucket seats allow for harnesses and HANS. But what about all the other cars that don't have such stock equipment? They have to turn their cars into track cars or semi-track cars to be able to continue their hobby??
I began instructing this year and I must say that I'm thankful for today's stability management systems for keeping my butt relatively safe(r) in the right seat. Lean on them? No good. But to have it as a safety net? The selfish passenger in me thinks it's a good thing, i.e. I don't think I'd be comfortable telling my students to turn it off unless I deem the student to be truly ready.
08-13-2015, 06:12 AM
#50
This summer I have emailed back and forth with Ross about my own experience. He shared his thoughts with me and I appreciate them greatly.
We could implement this smartly in such a way that enhances the sport, instead of killing it off. It would be fairly easy to graduate people into faster run groups via "safety" equipment. Beginner and Intermediate? MINIMUM UTQG of 180 or higher tire rating. You want to get into White group? Where's the rollbar/proper seatS/proper harnesses and HANS. Put the responsibility on them to step up in all the right ways.
Also, I'm a BIG fan of getting out of their cars for a session, even green group, to let them get the feel for the car without the distraction of the instructor and his/her added weight. Not suggesting signing them off at all. Anchoring the event with many sessions with the instructor, including the final session WITH the instructor recapping the positives and areas to focus on next time will help the student. But letting them go for a session solo helps them better understand the value in the instructor being there as well. For that matter, running a lead/follow scenario wouldn't be a bad thing either. Some clubs have done this in the past, I'm told.
I am heavily involved with my local car scene and the new track being built 30 minutes from my home. And I spend more time explaining to people why hp performance numbers don't matter. Most people just glaze over and the few who actually pay attention start asking all the right questions. We truly live in an amazing car age. With these wonderful toys comes the responsibility of keeping people safe at these events. We need to continually remind people that this is first and foremost EDUCATIONAL. If they want to go racing, there are any number of series to go race in.
When any Registrar I'm friends with asks what my preference is with students, I now ask for the 4 cylinder front drive Honda/VW/Ford/Dodge/Mazda with the greenest student.
We could implement this smartly in such a way that enhances the sport, instead of killing it off. It would be fairly easy to graduate people into faster run groups via "safety" equipment. Beginner and Intermediate? MINIMUM UTQG of 180 or higher tire rating. You want to get into White group? Where's the rollbar/proper seatS/proper harnesses and HANS. Put the responsibility on them to step up in all the right ways.
Also, I'm a BIG fan of getting out of their cars for a session, even green group, to let them get the feel for the car without the distraction of the instructor and his/her added weight. Not suggesting signing them off at all. Anchoring the event with many sessions with the instructor, including the final session WITH the instructor recapping the positives and areas to focus on next time will help the student. But letting them go for a session solo helps them better understand the value in the instructor being there as well. For that matter, running a lead/follow scenario wouldn't be a bad thing either. Some clubs have done this in the past, I'm told.
I am heavily involved with my local car scene and the new track being built 30 minutes from my home. And I spend more time explaining to people why hp performance numbers don't matter. Most people just glaze over and the few who actually pay attention start asking all the right questions. We truly live in an amazing car age. With these wonderful toys comes the responsibility of keeping people safe at these events. We need to continually remind people that this is first and foremost EDUCATIONAL. If they want to go racing, there are any number of series to go race in.
When any Registrar I'm friends with asks what my preference is with students, I now ask for the 4 cylinder front drive Honda/VW/Ford/Dodge/Mazda with the greenest student.
08-13-2015, 08:19 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
I think modern cars are much safer. Given a 991 vs a 930 in a yellow run group, I'd pick the 991 to be in hands down. It's up to the instructor to control the student. I think we're really talking about how to deal with problem students - that's what keeps me up at night. It's not easy as an instructor to fix an attitude issue, and it's not easy to ask someone to leave. It it were, there would be fewer examples of flat out threads.
An no one is talking about mechanical endurance and condition of a vehicle. Bad things can happen, but there are cars that have a higher probability of dropping oil or blowing a coolant line (997 GT3....for example, but it can be addressed and should be mandatory).
Fix these two things and we can take a big chunk of the risk out of the sport without hurting it as much as turning it into an alternative to scrapbooking.
An no one is talking about mechanical endurance and condition of a vehicle. Bad things can happen, but there are cars that have a higher probability of dropping oil or blowing a coolant line (997 GT3....for example, but it can be addressed and should be mandatory).
Fix these two things and we can take a big chunk of the risk out of the sport without hurting it as much as turning it into an alternative to scrapbooking.
08-13-2015, 08:36 AM
#52
The Penguin King
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I think modern cars are much safer. Given a 991 vs a 930 in a yellow run group, I'd pick the 991 to be in hands down. It's up to the instructor to control the student. I think we're really talking about how to deal with problem students - that's what keeps me up at night. It's not easy as an instructor to fix an attitude issue, and it's not easy to ask someone to leave. It it were, there would be fewer examples of flat out threads.
An no one is talking about mechanical endurance and condition of a vehicle. Bad things can happen, but there are cars that have a higher probability of dropping oil or blowing a coolant line (997 GT3....for example, but it can be addressed and should be mandatory).
Fix these two things and we can take a big chunk of the risk out of the sport without hurting it as much as turning it into an alternative to scrapbooking.
An no one is talking about mechanical endurance and condition of a vehicle. Bad things can happen, but there are cars that have a higher probability of dropping oil or blowing a coolant line (997 GT3....for example, but it can be addressed and should be mandatory).
Fix these two things and we can take a big chunk of the risk out of the sport without hurting it as much as turning it into an alternative to scrapbooking.
And let's not forget about the hot-rodded stuff that shows up. I've seen two highly modified GM products go up in flames and the drivers and instructors have to bail out the window. I won't even go into how many serious safety issues have popped up from modified 951's.
08-13-2015, 09:04 AM
#53
I certainly think that it would be a very good idea for people to get a lot of autocross experience in their cars before heading to the big track. Heck, an autocross school requirement would be good too but I don't know if those are available in all areas.
On the flip side, I would imagine that some people with autocross experience don't realize how different it is to correct at 100 MPH versus 60 MPH. So there may be a higher level of comfort on the big track than there should be. This certainly could bite someone in the butt. Any trade off here is worth it, though!
On the flip side, I would imagine that some people with autocross experience don't realize how different it is to correct at 100 MPH versus 60 MPH. So there may be a higher level of comfort on the big track than there should be. This certainly could bite someone in the butt. Any trade off here is worth it, though!
How about a signoff for race tires requiring the student to demonstrate driving street tires competently at the limit? You could even require hans, harnesses, and roll bar/cage before allowing race tires. IMO, a lot of students move to race rubber too early.
Those students wanting race tires are also the serious ones, who would be less likely to be put off by buying safety gear. Discouraging those that don't want safety gear at this point may not be a bad thing.
-Mike
08-13-2015, 09:28 AM
#54
One thought- you can't put a chicane on a straight away if it was not integrated in the original track design. We tried at Pocono and it created a more hazardous situation. My perspective has changed recently due to the new cars. All the rules of driving we grew up with no longer seem to apply to new vehicles. A whole new set of rules. Vector steering, PSM , stability management systems etc. Put the car anywhere and it goes around the turn. Driver believe they are skillful. Slowing up the cars is not to me the solution. Slowing up the drivers so they are anticipating track situations rather than reacting. Ya gotta go slow to go fast. I'm not as comfortable in right seat as before. I think it is called physics. Many clubs looking for alternate method than just right seating. I like to go fast but always remember there is a turn at the end of the straight.
08-13-2015, 09:54 AM
#55
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Two things:
1. As other people have mentioned the real issue here is insurance. People tend not to take personal responsibility when things go wrong and it is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt of killed and there is a big lawsuit. If you think track costs are expensive now, well, just wait. Either we get safer somehow or the tracks and insurance companies will do it for us.
2. The PCA region I belong to get crap about being tough on promotions. To be honest, I think being tough on promotions and adhering to rules like only using trained instructors is part of what keeps us safe. I attended another region's event and was asked to instruct in green even though I am not an instructor. I declined. Happy to be an instructor when the time comes but I want to go through the training first.
Bottom line - if we don't start getting safe the decisions will be made for us.
1. As other people have mentioned the real issue here is insurance. People tend not to take personal responsibility when things go wrong and it is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt of killed and there is a big lawsuit. If you think track costs are expensive now, well, just wait. Either we get safer somehow or the tracks and insurance companies will do it for us.
2. The PCA region I belong to get crap about being tough on promotions. To be honest, I think being tough on promotions and adhering to rules like only using trained instructors is part of what keeps us safe. I attended another region's event and was asked to instruct in green even though I am not an instructor. I declined. Happy to be an instructor when the time comes but I want to go through the training first.
Bottom line - if we don't start getting safe the decisions will be made for us.
08-13-2015, 10:52 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
Great discussion and alot of good points raised...
But the core issue I am thinking about is big tracks like RA, where some of the cars can be hitting 180+... That is alot of energy in a crash.
Would I rather be in a 930@130mph or a 991@170.... I'm not sure which would fare better.
But the core issue I am thinking about is big tracks like RA, where some of the cars can be hitting 180+... That is alot of energy in a crash.
Would I rather be in a 930@130mph or a 991@170.... I'm not sure which would fare better.
08-13-2015, 11:00 AM
#57
Pro
Seems to me like most people are agreeing more than they're disagreeing ...
There's really three separate scenarios at play; it might helpful to look at them this way:
1. Instructed, Beginner Drivers. Why not limit the speed on straights, or elsewhere? Instructors already impose certain limits on their own. Driving on a track is such a new experience, this will NOT kill the fun of it. I don't have any data to support this, but I don't think its controversial to say that the biggest problem with crashes ISN'T with this group.
2. Solo, advanced drivers. In my experience, once someone has committed the time to become an advanced level driver they've also realized the need for safety equipment and have invested equally in their car's safety. So why not make it mandatory? Rollbar, HANS, Seats and harnesses at a minimum (similar to TT rules). I believe this is a no-brainer for open track events.
3. Solo, beginner drivers. In my experience, this is where there is the highest probability that a driver will have an accident AND also not have a full prepared car. (The HPDE2 driver killed at Road Atlanta would fit into this group). These drivers still have so much to learn - but now they're also dealing with fatigue and that very human, desire to go faster - all on their own. They're fast enough to cause problems for themselves, but perhaps they haven't developed the skills YET to fix them. I personally think groups would be smart to place some restrictions on these drivers (speed limits, tire limits - that's all up for discussion), AS WELL as mandate more regular instructor check-ins/audits/whatever you want to call it. Looking back at my own experience as a student, I was solo'd with very little experience (just three days). A more rigorous requirement before stepping up to that advanced level would also be smart; I've seen way too many drivers in white that I didn't think were prepared to run alongside black drivers.
But at the end of the day, I fully realize that these suggestions would NOT have likely saved this driver's life.
Accidents happen, but no one ever thinks these kinds of accidents will happen to them!
There's really three separate scenarios at play; it might helpful to look at them this way:
1. Instructed, Beginner Drivers. Why not limit the speed on straights, or elsewhere? Instructors already impose certain limits on their own. Driving on a track is such a new experience, this will NOT kill the fun of it. I don't have any data to support this, but I don't think its controversial to say that the biggest problem with crashes ISN'T with this group.
2. Solo, advanced drivers. In my experience, once someone has committed the time to become an advanced level driver they've also realized the need for safety equipment and have invested equally in their car's safety. So why not make it mandatory? Rollbar, HANS, Seats and harnesses at a minimum (similar to TT rules). I believe this is a no-brainer for open track events.
3. Solo, beginner drivers. In my experience, this is where there is the highest probability that a driver will have an accident AND also not have a full prepared car. (The HPDE2 driver killed at Road Atlanta would fit into this group). These drivers still have so much to learn - but now they're also dealing with fatigue and that very human, desire to go faster - all on their own. They're fast enough to cause problems for themselves, but perhaps they haven't developed the skills YET to fix them. I personally think groups would be smart to place some restrictions on these drivers (speed limits, tire limits - that's all up for discussion), AS WELL as mandate more regular instructor check-ins/audits/whatever you want to call it. Looking back at my own experience as a student, I was solo'd with very little experience (just three days). A more rigorous requirement before stepping up to that advanced level would also be smart; I've seen way too many drivers in white that I didn't think were prepared to run alongside black drivers.
But at the end of the day, I fully realize that these suggestions would NOT have likely saved this driver's life.
Accidents happen, but no one ever thinks these kinds of accidents will happen to them!
08-13-2015, 11:00 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
I agree this is a discussion that needs to happen. I also feel that we can't mandate that people spend thousands of dollars on safety equipment on their street car. Once people are hooked and start to time trial/higher HPDE groups then I do think a minimum standard of safety equipment should be required, beyond just a helmet.
Two things always make me pause as an instructor. The first is stepping into a 500+ hp car with no safety equipment, or a highly modified car, again with no safety equipment.
The other is stepping into a car that has what I feel is improperly installed safety equipment. For example, I don't like harness bars. I'm really uncomfortable instructing in a car with fixed back seats, harnesses and just a harness bar holding the harnesses.
Accidents do happen but we should be doing reasonable things to mitigate the risk of both the participants and the instructors...
Two things always make me pause as an instructor. The first is stepping into a 500+ hp car with no safety equipment, or a highly modified car, again with no safety equipment.
The other is stepping into a car that has what I feel is improperly installed safety equipment. For example, I don't like harness bars. I'm really uncomfortable instructing in a car with fixed back seats, harnesses and just a harness bar holding the harnesses.
Accidents do happen but we should be doing reasonable things to mitigate the risk of both the participants and the instructors...
08-13-2015, 11:12 AM
#59
JasOnn,
Mandatory?
Sure way to kill off HPDE.
Who is now responsible for approving said equipment? If I were the track owner I would run the other way. No way I'm going to making the decision.
I love how some on this thread want to spend someone else's money.
It all comes down to personal responsibility. If you as an instructor don't feel comfortable...don't get in the car. If the driver is out of control, driving over his skill level...pull him off track. You as the instructor can control the situation.
Lot of hysteria here...180 mph + speeds...bullsh*t. In a 750 hp can-am car top speeds at Elkhart just barely get to 180 mph. Come on.
Mandatory?
Sure way to kill off HPDE.
Who is now responsible for approving said equipment? If I were the track owner I would run the other way. No way I'm going to making the decision.
I love how some on this thread want to spend someone else's money.
It all comes down to personal responsibility. If you as an instructor don't feel comfortable...don't get in the car. If the driver is out of control, driving over his skill level...pull him off track. You as the instructor can control the situation.
Lot of hysteria here...180 mph + speeds...bullsh*t. In a 750 hp can-am car top speeds at Elkhart just barely get to 180 mph. Come on.
08-13-2015, 11:27 AM
#60
Pro
Really? That's seems quite extreme. How many people do you know who run in an Advanced Group who don't already have the level of gear I suggest? Do you really believe that such a small group (who already spends tons of money on events over the course of a year) would balk at a few thousand on their own safety?
The same organizations who already approve existing safety equipment for racing (PCA, NASA, SCCA all do it) - is this a trick question? Thankfully, you're not a track owner. And its not the track owner's decision. Its entirely up to the groups renting the track and sanctioning the event.
The same organizations who already approve existing safety equipment for racing (PCA, NASA, SCCA all do it) - is this a trick question? Thankfully, you're not a track owner. And its not the track owner's decision. Its entirely up to the groups renting the track and sanctioning the event.
