Mishaps, I still don't get it.
06-04-2013, 05:31 PM
#61
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OK, I've just spent some time reviewing the PCA Club Racing 2013 Rule Book: http://www.pca.org/portals/cr/2013%2...ule%20Book.pdf
And there is no mention of passing rules, how to overtake, who "owns" a corner, etc. It is really all distilled into the following statement (on page 6, under Driver Requirements):
So, in the incident we're discussing, if we were going to assign blame, we'd have to show that one driver or the other (or both) acted in such a way to place the other driver in a "damaging or dangerous situation".
But I agree, Scott - and I [hope to] drive in such a way that I either leave room for a car attempting a pass, or I don't leave an opening in the first place.
And there is no mention of passing rules, how to overtake, who "owns" a corner, etc. It is really all distilled into the following statement (on page 6, under Driver Requirements):
So, in the incident we're discussing, if we were going to assign blame, we'd have to show that one driver or the other (or both) acted in such a way to place the other driver in a "damaging or dangerous situation".
But I agree, Scott - and I [hope to] drive in such a way that I either leave room for a car attempting a pass, or I don't leave an opening in the first place.
"Who has the corner?
I want to thank Carl Tallardy for the 360 degree awareness article in the last issue of CRN. The 13/13 rule puts a lot of responsibility on each racer to be aware of the drivers he or she is competing with. We place the responsibility on the overtaking car to complete a safe pass. The car ahead at the turn in has the corner. Unless the car executing the pass is at the front bumper or ahead, the pass has not been completed. Backing off, braking hard, and having a way out are a few options to avoid contact with the car ahead. Some of you race in other venues where the front door or front wheel of the car you are passing gives you the corner. We do not want to advocate "dive bomb passing" moves and we stand by the procedure mentioned above."
In the previous month's column (http://www.pca.org/portals/crn/CRN-2011-3.pdf), she had written:
"We emphasize the importance of Common Sense Awareness. This concept is for everyone, from rookies to race leaders. Recently there have been situations involving lead cars. For example, the lead car must earn the pass as it comes through the field. In one situation a faster car attempted an inside pass in the braking zone for a left hand turn. The faster car was able to get up to the left rear of the car ahead but the right front of the faster car hit the left rear of the car being passed. The car on the right had not changed its line. Even though this type of pass may have worked in prior corners you need to maintain a "way out" because in this situation the faster car was not ahead at the turn-in for the corner. If both cars are even at turn-in then both must leave racing room."
I would like PCA to include this type of information in the rule book, perhaps as an appendix as is done by NASA and PRC. Whether one agrees with this approach to overtaking or not, it is critical that everyone understands the rules that apply for a given race.
06-04-2013, 05:35 PM
#63
Burning Brakes
"nobody pass in turn 5"- Ha, may be true in DEs...but a race?
06-04-2013, 05:36 PM
#64
Burning Brakes
Happened to me, Turn 1 at VIR last year as well and one 13 handed out - to me. Other driver admitted he saw me but "left room". Yes, a whole car width of room, on the inside grass, thanks man.
06-04-2013, 05:44 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
IMO, t5 is a GREAT place to pass.
06-04-2013, 05:50 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
PCA passing rules need to be in the rule book. It has been talked about for years and nobody listens.
Rookies hear different things at their meetings depending on who is giving it.
You will hear slightly different interpretations of passing rules at drivers meetings depending on who is holding the meeting.
There are incident scenarios discussed in the club racing news letter and I really appreciate them, but that is not the same as a set of rules/guidelines.
I really have mixed feelings about the PCA 13/13 system. After racing with PCA for 10 years I honestly don't know if it really works or not.
I think it has created a culture of blocking in PCA, more than actual racing.
I see a lot of drivers really taking advantage of the rule.
Too much defensive driving,chop blocking, and other crap.
There seems to be multiple incidents at almost every race.
Would we have more without a 13/13 rule?
Do we have more or less than other sanctioning bodies?
How many races/race weekends have been ruined over light contact during a race?
This is not meant to be a "sour grapes" post against PCA. I know there are no easy answers.
I have had, and continue to have a lot of fun racing with PCA. I appreciate all of the hard work that goes into making all of the races happen.
Rookies hear different things at their meetings depending on who is giving it.
You will hear slightly different interpretations of passing rules at drivers meetings depending on who is holding the meeting.
There are incident scenarios discussed in the club racing news letter and I really appreciate them, but that is not the same as a set of rules/guidelines.
I really have mixed feelings about the PCA 13/13 system. After racing with PCA for 10 years I honestly don't know if it really works or not.
I think it has created a culture of blocking in PCA, more than actual racing.
I see a lot of drivers really taking advantage of the rule.
Too much defensive driving,chop blocking, and other crap.
There seems to be multiple incidents at almost every race.
Would we have more without a 13/13 rule?
Do we have more or less than other sanctioning bodies?
How many races/race weekends have been ruined over light contact during a race?
This is not meant to be a "sour grapes" post against PCA. I know there are no easy answers.
I have had, and continue to have a lot of fun racing with PCA. I appreciate all of the hard work that goes into making all of the races happen.
06-04-2013, 05:53 PM
#68
I don't like this whole "owns the corner" mentality. In my view, the only time you "own" the corner is when there is no overlap. If there is over lap, you leave racing room. This is club racing, not racing earning a living. Who wins when the lead car turns in to the apex and hits the car with less than 100% overlap? Only the cars behind the incident that move up a few spots (assuming the incident does not end up involving them as well).
Having said that, unless I am sure the car in front of me is not coming over, I have an escape plan in case they do. I certainly don't stick the nose of my car somewhere the last second and expect racing room to be given.
Scott
Having said that, unless I am sure the car in front of me is not coming over, I have an escape plan in case they do. I certainly don't stick the nose of my car somewhere the last second and expect racing room to be given.
Scott
06-04-2013, 06:19 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
It also nicely complements their blocking rule which says that the lead car can chose a (defensive) line once and can't maneuver back and forth to block (impede the progress of) the car behind. If the overtaking car manages to establish ANY overlap (definitely if its front wheels are overlapping with the rear wheels of the other) the overtaken car cannot do anything which would impede its progress (block it) including pushing the overtaking car off the track as the overtaken one goes for the apex. The overtaken car must leave room.
Now sometimes the overtaken car still doesn't go by this rule so it's prudent for the overtaking car to have a plan B in order to avoid contact (bringing a pit-in penalty for both cars, DNF, and/or potential damage liability). But this is just strategy.
Skip Barber managers/instructors know a thing or two about minimizing damage/risk/liability. They must, or they'd go out of business. Perhaps PCA could learn something from them and copy their rules.
Last edited by hf1; 06-04-2013 at 07:13 PM.
06-04-2013, 06:30 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Excellent
Not knowing all of the circumstances (nor the outcome), I applaud the posting of this video for the edification and considered thought of those who bother to look at it AND think about it and their own driving... Let's do a little PM here.
Not unusual because folks are in there for a LONG time, the exit from the bus stop varies from driver to driver, many don't have a very clear vision of what they want they want to do here and MOST drivers are not "on the limit," therefore are slow enough to abruptly change direction.
The BIGGEST danger the overtaking car is demonstrating in this video is "hanging" off the blind rear quarter of the car he wishes to overtake, exposing him to the incident, for WAY too long. Either get it done, or leave yourself more of an "out."
True, in this case.
I would HOPE you (and other faster drivers) are planning on rubbing with their right front tire, the intersection between the pavement and the curbing for several car lengths and closest abeam to the worker station.
Agreed, if you take the line away from the outside guy, you can accelerates strongly enough to beat them to the brake point for Turn 6. However, if the outside guy toughs it out and you are unable to capitalize on that, they'll get to the turn-in point at T6 in the same way you took their line away through Turn 5. Goes both ways.
I'm still struggling with the variation in assignation of blame in PCA Club Racing, and I don't know the outcome of this one, but I can see both ways.
If I KNEW there was someone overlapping me, I would leave a car width plus 6" on the inside to prevent that contact from happening. The potentially overtaken car car didn't do that. They did make an abrupt, sudden move (it appears) and left the overtaking car (MSTACH) no option but to hit him.
OTOH, there is no potential for contact if there is no overtaking car "sticking their nose in," which is the root cause of most 13/13 "responsibility" incidents.
As usual, this was not a static issue, the situation developed over time, neither driver really was very decisive and both got caught out.
It's never easy, but to answer the last (bold) question, unless you are side-by-side or nose-inches-ahead, it's the lead car's race track...
MSTACH had enough steam, IMO, to draw further alongside (at least evenly) while he was waiting for things to shake out, and stake claim to track position before the potentially overtaken car took the abrupt action he did that resulted in contact.
Not unusual because folks are in there for a LONG time, the exit from the bus stop varies from driver to driver, many don't have a very clear vision of what they want they want to do here and MOST drivers are not "on the limit," therefore are slow enough to abruptly change direction.
The BIGGEST danger the overtaking car is demonstrating in this video is "hanging" off the blind rear quarter of the car he wishes to overtake, exposing him to the incident, for WAY too long. Either get it done, or leave yourself more of an "out."
True, in this case.
I would HOPE you (and other faster drivers) are planning on rubbing with their right front tire, the intersection between the pavement and the curbing for several car lengths and closest abeam to the worker station.
Agreed, if you take the line away from the outside guy, you can accelerates strongly enough to beat them to the brake point for Turn 6. However, if the outside guy toughs it out and you are unable to capitalize on that, they'll get to the turn-in point at T6 in the same way you took their line away through Turn 5. Goes both ways.
I'm still struggling with the variation in assignation of blame in PCA Club Racing, and I don't know the outcome of this one, but I can see both ways.
If I KNEW there was someone overlapping me, I would leave a car width plus 6" on the inside to prevent that contact from happening. The potentially overtaken car car didn't do that. They did make an abrupt, sudden move (it appears) and left the overtaking car (MSTACH) no option but to hit him.
OTOH, there is no potential for contact if there is no overtaking car "sticking their nose in," which is the root cause of most 13/13 "responsibility" incidents.
As usual, this was not a static issue, the situation developed over time, neither driver really was very decisive and both got caught out.
It's never easy, but to answer the last (bold) question, unless you are side-by-side or nose-inches-ahead, it's the lead car's race track...
MSTACH had enough steam, IMO, to draw further alongside (at least evenly) while he was waiting for things to shake out, and stake claim to track position before the potentially overtaken car took the abrupt action he did that resulted in contact.
06-04-2013, 07:01 PM
#72
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06-04-2013, 07:08 PM
#74
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06-04-2013, 07:09 PM
#75
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