Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:
View Poll Results: Would you instruct in this car?
Yes
45
72.58%
No
14
22.58%
Maybe? (What would be other considerations?)
3
4.84%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

Question for DE instructors

 
Old 01-28-2013, 02:02 PM
  #1  
white924s
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
white924s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Mateo, CA
Posts: 2,137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Question for DE instructors

Hypothetically, if you were an instructor at a DE event, what would you think of this scenario:

Student's car is mostly stock (street tires, street suspension, basically unmodified motor), but the student has added fixed back seats and 6-pt harnesses. Everything is properly mounted, but the student is using a Brey-Krause harness bar for the shoulder belts and the car does not have a roll bar or roll cage (it is a coupe, so it complies with the letter of the safety rules). Factory 3-pt belts are also available if you prefer those to harnesses.

Would you instruct in a car like that? I know the harness bar/roll bar discussion has been had here already a few times, but I couldn't find much on whether most instructors/tech inspectors would have a problem with this type of setup.

I am asking because I am looking at safety gear upgrades, and while a roll bar would no doubt be safer, it is also much more expensive and presents logistical hurdles. In most situations, I think most agree that properly installed 6-pt belts and a HANS are safer than 3-pt belts. There is some debate about whether they are safer in a rollover, but quite frankly, I wouldn't feel great about going into a rollover with the 3-pt belts either. For me, I would be OK with doing the safety upgrades in 2 steps (everything but roll bar now, then roll bar down the road), but I want to get a sense of how instructors feel because I still want to be able to get instruction at events.

Thanks!
white924s is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:16 PM
  #2  
aj986s
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
aj986s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Damascus, MD
Posts: 1,344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I don't see a problem with the proposed setup. However, both driver and passenger should be using the same restraint system; both using 6-point or both using OEM 3-point. Also note that intructors come in all sizes, so some racing seats and/or 6-point belts might be problematic for larger folks.
aj986s is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:31 PM
  #3  
Gary R.
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Gary R.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Valencia, Spain
Posts: 15,000
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

No problem with me Mike, as long as the region says it's ok.... but some people say I have a death wish (after they watch me drive).
Gary R. is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:40 PM
  #4  
mglobe
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
 
mglobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 9,524
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Gary R. View Post
No problem with me Mike, as long as the region says it's ok.... but some people say I have a death wish (after they watch me drive).
I'm fine with the setup as long as Gary isn't driving.
mglobe is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:43 PM
  #5  
Gary R.
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Gary R.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Valencia, Spain
Posts: 15,000
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mglobe View Post
I'm fine with the setup as long as Gary isn't driving.
Most people feel that way Mike... and that covers ANY setup.
Gary R. is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:49 PM
  #6  
FGL28
Anjin San
Rennlist Member
 
FGL28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: South Pasadangerous, California
Posts: 21,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I would instruct from the right seat as long as it is not my wife in the drivers seat.
FGL28 is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:57 PM
  #7  
element
User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

a harness is one of the best upgrades anyways.. its amazing how much energy you use holding yourself in the seat with OEM 3 point.. with a harness your hips are attached to the seat and you get much more feel for all the controls... will probably help keep you out of a wall, so there is a balance there!

phil.
element is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 03:16 PM
  #8  
bobt993
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
bobt993's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Philly Burbs
Posts: 3,063
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Harness guide bar or strut harness brace? Big difference. If it is a guide bar and the harnesses are mounted to it rather than to anchor point then just use the factory belts. If Gary is there just swap students with him.
bobt993 is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:12 PM
  #9  
Veloce Raptor
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In a race car...
Posts: 39,154
Likes: 0
Received 35 Likes on 15 Posts
Default

I am reluctant to get into cars with seats & harnesses, but no rollover protection whatsoever.
Veloce Raptor is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:20 PM
  #10  
white924s
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
white924s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Mateo, CA
Posts: 2,137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Thanks everyone, that's helpful feedback. I will probably get a large passenger seat to match the large driver one that I will need - hopefully that will accommodate most instructors, and I could ride in the car if an instructor wanted to show me the line at a new track. So far, I have managed to avoid scaring my instructors, and I'll try to keep doing so even with the improved safety gear.

I am looking at the Brey-Krause harness bar, which connects to the B-pillars but also has rods to bolt to the C-pillars to prevent flexing that many other harness bars suffer from.

A few pictures of the bar I am looking at:


white924s is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:29 PM
  #11  
bsztanko
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
bsztanko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Don't use a 5 point unless you have a roll bar. Especially in a 944. The roof buckles like a beer can.
bsztanko is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:29 PM
  #12  
adrial
Super User
 
adrial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 7,426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Have you considered the Rennline bolt in roll bar? I don't think it's a very significant $$ increase over the harness bar.
adrial is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:33 PM
  #13  
white924s
Addict
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
 
white924s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Mateo, CA
Posts: 2,137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
I am reluctant to get into cars with seats & harnesses, but no rollover protection whatsoever.
VR - if you don't mind me pushing you a bit on this, is your reluctance due to the possibility that adding harnesses without a rollbar could create a risk in a rollover situation? If so, would using the 3-pt belts instead of the harnesses be a reasonable way assuage your concerns?

If that wouldn't solve the problem, I'd be interested to learn more about why.

Thanks
white924s is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:59 PM
  #14  
pontifex4
Super User
 
pontifex4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 3,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by adrial View Post
Have you considered the Rennline bolt in roll bar? I don't think it's a very significant $$ increase over the harness bar.
I was just going to ask this, too. Easily and non-destructively installed, and I believe they're around $650 shipped by Greyhound to your nearest depot.
pontifex4 is offline  
Old 01-28-2013, 05:59 PM
  #15  
Veloce Raptor
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Veloce Raptor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: In a race car...
Posts: 39,154
Likes: 0
Received 35 Likes on 15 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by white924s View Post
VR - if you don't mind me pushing you a bit on this, is your reluctance due to the possibility that adding harnesses without a rollbar could create a risk in a rollover situation? If so, would using the 3-pt belts instead of the harnesses be a reasonable way assuage your concerns?

If that wouldn't solve the problem, I'd be interested to learn more about why.

Thanks
Yes that is it in a nutshell. I'd ride (depending on the driver/track/speed of run group combination) in the car as is with OEM seats and 3 point belts w/o rollover protection.
Veloce Raptor is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Question for DE instructors


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: