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View Poll Results: Would you instruct in this car?
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Maybe? (What would be other considerations?)
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Question for DE instructors

 
Old 01-31-2013, 01:45 PM
  #46  
67King
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Originally Posted by docwyte View Post
All mount into the stock seat belt holes with a single bolt in shear..........that single bolt held in shear snaps.
Not sure I follow you since the factory belts use one bolt, but the Brey-Krause harness bar uses four (two from the B-pillar, two from the C). Seems to me you'd be happier with the proposed arrangement, rather than less comfortable with it. Even when there are two passengers, each one still gets twice as many bolts holding his shoulder restraints in place as the factory allows.

Not to mention that it takes more force to fail a bolt in shear that it does in tension......
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:38 PM
  #47  
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buy the roll bar now, or, wear a torso belt until you can afford the seats and rollbar.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...TorsoHarness/s


the harness bar is a waste of money. -eventually you'll need the roll bar.

-how much more money is the rollbar than the harness bar anyway?
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:17 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by mrbill_fl View Post
buy the roll bar now, or, wear a torso belt until you can afford the seats and rollbar.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...TorsoHarness/s


the harness bar is a waste of money. -eventually you'll need the roll bar.

-how much more money is the rollbar than the harness bar anyway?
I've never heard of a torso belt before - is it literally just a strap that you wrap around yourself and the seat? How would you prevent it from slipping down? My concern would be that if it slipped down, in an impact it would transfer the force to my stomach which seems dangerous.

Including installation, I think the rollbar would set me back at least an extra $1000, likely more. Eventually I will want a dedicated racecar with a full cage and trailer, but I'm not there yet and I may get another car before I get there - I think it will be a while. So if I get the harness bar now, I may eventually replace it with a roll bar in this car (in which case the harness bar could be sold to recoup some of the cost), or I may get another car and I would need a rollbar for that car.

Yes, I would absolutely get in the car. Rollovers are rare in the student groups of PCA HPDE. Yes, I've seen them in the upper run groups and many Miata races. A Brey-Krause harness bar is perfectly good with 5/6 points and tub seats, in this case. It is inappropriate to use the 3-points in tub seats. It is an unmodified student's car with street suspension and street tires so I assume that it is used on the street and the student would like to drive it home. No tech inspector in the regions I drive with (northeast mostly) would bounce this car for any reason.

I've been driven into the wall in a stock 1995 993 (no, not my own) with original 16 year old seats and 3-points which were perfectly acceptable in PCA HPDE terms. I would have loved the set-up cited here and it would have prevented that ambulance ride. Any level of safety improvement is good over none. We talk like racers because we are. We cannot expect beginners to tear their Porsches apart to come to the track. Please, remember what it is like to instruct in green/yellow.

-- Mindy
Thanks Mindy, I'm glad to hear that the harness bar wouldn't be a problem for tech in any groups around here. Your assumption that I want to drive it home at the end of the day is spot on!
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:35 AM
  #49  
kurt M
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Originally Posted by mrbill_fl View Post
buy the roll bar now, or, wear a torso belt until you can afford the seats and rollbar.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...TorsoHarness/s


the harness bar is a waste of money. -eventually you'll need the roll bar.

-how much more money is the rollbar than the harness bar anyway?
The torso belt is sold for auto cross use. OP is doing DE. I think it is a bit nuts but at least the buckel is crappy enough that it will likely pop open if stressed rather than breaking ribs and driving them into your lungs when you move 18 inches foward in a simple frontal impact with a 3 point.

I used a harness bar for a while while a new student. Unlike a rollbar it was easy to install and remove when not at the track which was 90% of the time. I later sold the harness bar for most of what I paid and added a rollbar when the "not at the track" time became less than the "at the track" time. I did this early on and as it was what was being recomended by those in the know. Looking back I should have simply skipped the roll bar step and started in on a true safety system. After looking into and learning the real risks involved I learned that a roll bar is far from a complete safety system. I also figured out that a lot of what was being said at the track was not based on real world and was based on personal fears that often overshadowed the real risks. I took the time to build a car with a full safety system and converted the DE car to street use. I did not look at what the other DE or CR guys were doing while laying out the systems, I looked at that the pro builders in the "hard hits expected" venues such as NASCAR or WRC were doing. The car is not to ether level but it uses the same methods.


All of our cars employ compromise safety systems. The 3 point system is just the bottom rung.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:56 AM
  #50  
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The buckle with pop open in a crash.... as designed.

But it does keep you in your seat, with 3 point belts. (which is the point for adding seats and harness bar, correct?) -without a rollbar.

I use it all the time in the right seat, when I'm only given 3 point belts, and no wheel to support my back. ... along with my R3.
(a luggage strap would also work...)

This is a substitute for the proper equipment, until your budget allows. as already beat to death. with the harness bar, you will be held upright in a rollover, vs slide down lower w/ 3 point belts.


how much more $ are you really talking about to do it right?

ps: its surprisingly easy to roll a car. all you need is a little ramp like a guard rail...

Last edited by mrbill_fl; 02-01-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 10:49 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by white924s View Post
Including installation, I think the rollbar would set me back at least an extra $1000, likely more. Eventually I will want a dedicated racecar with a full cage and trailer, but I'm not there yet and I may get another car before I get there - I think it will be a while.

So if I get the harness bar now, I may eventually replace it with a roll bar in this car (in which case the harness bar could be sold to recoup some of the cost), or I may get another car and I would need a rollbar for that car.
I got a autopower rollbar for 300, and resold for $350 5 yrs later...(when I upgraded) I don't think you'll spend 1k on just a rollbar.

and even if you did, its easily resold.

ahem... google it.

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/a...FQu0nQoduHkAbQ

or this guy's

http://www.redlinerennsport.com/SafeguardPage.html
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:31 AM
  #52  
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I recommended John Hajny's bar earlier, too. It's nicely made, sturdy, and last time I talked to him last year, he wanted $650 shipped. It strikes me as the right solution, since it's a totally non-destructive installation. It even stiffens the car noticeably.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:19 PM
  #53  
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Mike,
I'd strongly suggest that you take a look at OG Racing's roll bar. I purchased one for my 944 Turbo, years back, and it was a nice piece for a great price. Installation was pretty simple, and I felt very safe running fast on the track. I looked at the Redline piece, and it didn't cut it for me.

At $700, it's really not a significant step up in price, while the safety benefits are significant.

-Jon
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:56 PM
  #54  
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Great thread. My preference is to instruct in a car with properly installed racing seat and harness, even if it's with a harness bar. It lets me use my Hans. I had a student take me off track a couple of years ago. We didn't hit anything but he launched the car off a gator. The corner worker later told me we were a minimum of 3 to 4 feet off the ground. When we landed the impact snapped my head down. I could hardly move my head and neck the next day. The car was a 911 and had stock 3 point belts. How hard did we hit? The impact bottomed the back of the car so hard it cracked the bottom engine cover. I too have see a lot of DE wrecks, no rollovers, but a lot of sudden stops. I would rather be protected against the latter. I do still instruct in cars with stock belts.

Also, I always ask a student what type of harness he has on my side of the car. If it's a 5 or 6 point I go to his car, make sure I fit the seat and harness, and get it adjusted before we ever grid.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:14 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Gary R. View Post
No problem with me Mike, as long as the region says it's ok.... but some people say I have a death wish (after they watch me drive).
Hmmmm...I have to hear this story
Originally Posted by mglobe View Post
I'm fine with the setup as long as Gary isn't driving.

Originally Posted by FGL28 View Post
I would instruct from the right seat as long as it is not my wife in the drivers seat.
So, I should stay single as long as possible?
Originally Posted by bsztanko View Post
Don't use a 5 point unless you have a roll bar. Especially in a 944. The roof buckles like a beer can.
OUCH!!!




So, should I have the cage installed before my first DE?
Jeff said he doesn't think my seats will work............
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:01 AM
  #56  
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I went straight to the roll bar setup after my first two DE weekends three years ago ... picked up a DAS Bar,installed some Sparcos with six point harnesses and i just sold my DAS bar a few weeks ago for basically what i paid for it !
Currently in the process of installing my six point cage ...

You know you'll do it eventually,might as well be now

Cheers !
Phil
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:07 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by pontifex4 View Post
I recommended John Hajny's bar earlier, too. It's nicely made, sturdy, and last time I talked to him last year, he wanted $650 shipped. It strikes me as the right solution, since it's a totally non-destructive installation. It even stiffens the car noticeably.
X2 except the stiffening part...I measured no difference. I had one for years. It's a very nice piece and fits tightly in the car. John lives in NY, as does the OP. this should be a no brainer ESP for shipping. IIRC, it had some sort of triangulation from the roof bar.

I sold mine for almost what I paid for it when I went to a full cage. The worry of a bolt shearing? Wouldn't the same issue happen with a 3point belt?


For the record, I would instruct in that car with the harnesses. But if I was spending y money, I would buy the redline bar.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:43 AM
  #58  
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Your first concern should be safety, not learning to become a faster/better driver. I agree with the post above that suggests that the first purchase should be the roll bar, and then later the seats and harnesses. I've seen many roll overs at DEs, and I've seen people walk away from them, both with bolt in bars and with street belts and no bar. (BMWs seem to hold up better with roll overs than P-cars, in my experience). I would instruct in your car as first proposed, but would require you to wear the street belt, as would I. I don't want you to be stabilized by the harness, which would encourage you to go faster, and not have what I consider a safe set up. I don't like to ride in cars without harnesses, because the street belts render my HANS useless, and would reel you in if I thought you were "exploring new territory"
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