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Question for DE instructors

 
Old 01-28-2013, 06:46 PM
  #16  
993inNC
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
Yes that is it in a nutshell. I'd ride (depending on the driver/track/speed of run group combination) in the car as is with OEM seats and 3 point belts w/o rollover protection.
I'd have to go this route too.

If you need HANS and 6 pt. harnesses, then you clearly think you can drive hard enough to need that stuff. At which point you really should need roll protection. And I wouldn't want to be the tester of your theory if you ended up wrong! Plus I would want room to move if I were to be crushed because of the lack of roll protection.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
I am reluctant to get into cars with seats & harnesses, but no rollover protection whatsoever.
+1
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:26 PM
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News to me. How are harnesses without a cage more dangerous than 3 pts. without a cage? I was always more comfortable with harnesses (most DE students don't have cages), but maybe there is something I did not realize
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:35 PM
  #19  
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I'm with VR, 3 point OEM belts unless there is a roll bar. U4EEH imagine a roll over with the roof collapsing while you are held bolt upright by your harness.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:37 PM
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Gottcha Bob, thanks
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:55 PM
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Exactly, Bob!
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:19 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by TRT41 View Post
+1
Originally Posted by U4EEAH View Post
News to me. How are harnesses without a cage more dangerous than 3 pts. without a cage? I was always more comfortable with harnesses (most DE students don't have cages), but maybe there is something I did not realize
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau View Post
I'm with VR, 3 point OEM belts unless there is a roll bar. U4EEH imagine a roll over with the roof collapsing while you are held bolt upright by your harness.
VR is ON the MONEY! I've seen it and no way would I do it.
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pontifex4 View Post
I was just going to ask this, too. Easily and non-destructively installed, and I believe they're around $650 shipped by Greyhound to your nearest depot.
I've seen the Redline bar on other cars in the paddock. I was definitely impressed by the build quality, and I like how cleanly it bolts in to the factory mounting points. However, I am not sure how much rollover protection it provides because there is no triangulation across the main hoop. Also, picking the bar up from a greyhound station would be a hassle for me, but I will look into this some more. I also am looking into a similar product made by a guy in OH which does have a diagonal across the main hoop. A 3rd option I am considering is the bolt-in Heigo Clubsport bar. That has a sturdier mounting system (in my opinion) but it is the most expensive option and has an 8-12 week wait.

All of these cost several hundred dollars (or more) above the cost of the B-K bar and would involve more hassle with shipping/installation. Otherwise, my plan would be to get the B-K bar and use that for a season or 2 before either installing a proper roll-bar or upgrading to a newer car (which would get suitable safety upgrades).

Originally Posted by 993inNC View Post
I'd have to go this route too.

If you need HANS and 6 pt. harnesses, then you clearly think you can drive hard enough to need that stuff. At which point you really should need roll protection. And I wouldn't want to be the tester of your theory if you ended up wrong! Plus I would want room to move if I were to be crushed because of the lack of roll protection.
Thanks. I am interested in the harnesses not necessarily because I think I am driving hard enough to need them from a safety perspective, but rather because I want to be held in place more securely than my factory 3-pt belts and reclining seats can hold me. Once I get belts, I see the HANS device as a part of the package.

I don't think that the seats and harness will cause me to drive any more aggressively (I still need to drive the car home at the end of the day, after all), but hopefully I will be able to expend less energy bracing myself in the seat.

Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau View Post
I'm with VR, 3 point OEM belts unless there is a roll bar. U4EEH imagine a roll over with the roof collapsing while you are held bolt upright by your harness.
This is the rationale I've heard for getting a roll bar, and it does make some sense to me. I want to focus more on comparing a car without a roll bar with 3-pt harnesses to a car without a rollbar with 6-pt harnesses, to test the theory that harnesses without a rollbar makes the car less safe.

With 3-pt belts, in a rollover there is the risk of coming out of the belts and hitting my head on the roof or something else even if the roof doesn't crush in. Or the risk of the belt retractor locking in place and limiting my ability to bend if the roof does crush in (basically making the difference between 3 and 6-pt moot). So either way, there's some risk which would be mitigated by a proper roll bar, but it sounds like a fair number of people see the 3-pt sans roll bar as less risky than the 6-pt sans roll bar. It seems to me like a rollover would be pretty equally bad news either way. Am I exaggerating the risks of a rollover with 3-pt belts?

I do appreciate all of the feedback and advice. I am thinking hard about the various options out there, and the opinions from everyone here are very helpful in guiding my thinking. Thanks!
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:28 PM
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I was once offered the chance to instruct in a car with 40 year old lap belts as the only safety item. I did it. ( did I mention that the car was a very original 1967 Ferrari 275 gtb/4?) Both student and instructor had a blast. Was I being stupid? Perhaps. Would I do it again? YES!
But in all seriousness, I would suggest you spring for the roll bar.
Ds
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
I am reluctant to get into cars with seats & harnesses, but no rollover protection whatsoever.
+1
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:09 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by U4EEAH View Post
News to me. How are harnesses without a cage more dangerous than 3 pts. without a cage? I was always more comfortable with harnesses (most DE students don't have cages), but maybe there is something I did not realize
They keep you upright, as VR and Bob say.

This is an issue in vintage open cars. No roll bar, better to have just lap belts.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:46 PM
  #27  
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Just bite the bullet and buy a bolt in roll bar. No sense in delaying your car's likely destination.
I think the Redline bar is a solid, though I'm sure you could find faults with just about any setup if you put your mind to it.
Never liked the BK bar because it mounts near your head.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:58 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by white924s View Post

Thanks. I am interested in the harnesses not necessarily because I think I am driving hard enough to need them from a safety perspective, but rather because I want to be held in place more securely than my factory 3-pt belts and reclining seats can hold me. Once I get belts, I see the HANS device as a part of the package.

I don't think that the seats and harness will cause me to drive any more aggressively (I still need to drive the car home at the end of the day, after all), but hopefully I will be able to expend less energy bracing myself in the seat.
Might I suggest you look at better seats. I tracked my 993 years ago a couple times with factory seats and was all over the car with a 3 pt. I got serious and bought GT3 seats, a roll hoop and harnesses and the car (or maybe it was me or a combo of both) transformed! The seat is most important, followed by the roll hoop and lastly IMO the harness. In the end I removed the harness, went back to using the 3 pt and had no issues with movement. My butt was planted, I could concentrate on driving and steering inputs etc...... Used it that way until I retired the car from track duty.

Don't over compensate for bad seats with bolting yourself to it and having nothing to save you from getting crushed......

Just my .002 cents
Be safe whatever you decide, listen to your instructors and have fun
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:02 AM
  #29  
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I look at this from a probabilistic point of view. There are rollovers at DE's, but they are pretty rare compared to hitting stuff. The harness & HANS setup makes you much safer in my opinion in the large proportion of the incidents you are likely to encounter (i.e. hitting stuff), but may compromise safety in what I consider a low probability incident.

On a risk-weighted basis, I think you are still safer with harness/HANS/harness bar than you are with a three point. Are you safer still with a roll bar? Yes, though an A-piller collapse in a rollover could still be a problem.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:18 AM
  #30  
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This a really good subject. The veteran racer/ instructors have either been in or witnessed a big time roll over. The OP is located in NY area so I would imagine a couple of popular tracks being Lime Rock and WG. I have watched pretty dramatic roll-overs during both race and DE events at WG and Lime rock.

Roll bars work!!! A couple of years back a veteran DE driver in our region had a violent roll over in T9 at Summit Point in a 993. The roof collapsed and was molded to the shape of the upper roll hoop. The engine and trans had actually snapped apart from the violent rotation. Driver walked away. Without the roll bar there could have been a fatality.
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