View Poll Results: Would you instruct in this car?
Yes
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45
72.58%
No
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14
22.58%
Maybe? (What would be other considerations?)
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3
4.84%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll
Question for DE instructors
#16
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If you need HANS and 6 pt. harnesses, then you clearly think you can drive hard enough to need that stuff. At which point you really should need roll protection. And I wouldn't want to be the tester of your theory if you ended up wrong! Plus I would want room to move if I were to be crushed because of the lack of roll protection.
#18
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News to me. How are harnesses without a cage more dangerous than 3 pts. without a cage? I was always more comfortable with harnesses (most DE students don't have cages), but maybe there is something I did not realize
#19
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I'm with VR, 3 point OEM belts unless there is a roll bar. U4EEH imagine a roll over with the roof collapsing while you are held bolt upright by your harness.
#22
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__________________
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
#23
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All of these cost several hundred dollars (or more) above the cost of the B-K bar and would involve more hassle with shipping/installation. Otherwise, my plan would be to get the B-K bar and use that for a season or 2 before either installing a proper roll-bar or upgrading to a newer car (which would get suitable safety upgrades).
I'd have to go this route too.
If you need HANS and 6 pt. harnesses, then you clearly think you can drive hard enough to need that stuff. At which point you really should need roll protection. And I wouldn't want to be the tester of your theory if you ended up wrong! Plus I would want room to move if I were to be crushed because of the lack of roll protection.
If you need HANS and 6 pt. harnesses, then you clearly think you can drive hard enough to need that stuff. At which point you really should need roll protection. And I wouldn't want to be the tester of your theory if you ended up wrong! Plus I would want room to move if I were to be crushed because of the lack of roll protection.
I don't think that the seats and harness will cause me to drive any more aggressively (I still need to drive the car home at the end of the day, after all), but hopefully I will be able to expend less energy bracing myself in the seat.
With 3-pt belts, in a rollover there is the risk of coming out of the belts and hitting my head on the roof or something else even if the roof doesn't crush in. Or the risk of the belt retractor locking in place and limiting my ability to bend if the roof does crush in (basically making the difference between 3 and 6-pt moot). So either way, there's some risk which would be mitigated by a proper roll bar, but it sounds like a fair number of people see the 3-pt sans roll bar as less risky than the 6-pt sans roll bar. It seems to me like a rollover would be pretty equally bad news either way. Am I exaggerating the risks of a rollover with 3-pt belts?
I do appreciate all of the feedback and advice. I am thinking hard about the various options out there, and the opinions from everyone here are very helpful in guiding my thinking. Thanks!
#24
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I was once offered the chance to instruct in a car with 40 year old lap belts as the only safety item. I did it. ( did I mention that the car was a very original 1967 Ferrari 275 gtb/4?) Both student and instructor had a blast. Was I being stupid? Perhaps. Would I do it again? YES!
But in all seriousness, I would suggest you spring for the roll bar.
Ds
But in all seriousness, I would suggest you spring for the roll bar.
Ds
#26
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This is an issue in vintage open cars. No roll bar, better to have just lap belts.
#27
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Just bite the bullet and buy a bolt in roll bar. No sense in delaying your car's likely destination.
I think the Redline bar is a solid, though I'm sure you could find faults with just about any setup if you put your mind to it.
Never liked the BK bar because it mounts near your head.
I think the Redline bar is a solid, though I'm sure you could find faults with just about any setup if you put your mind to it.
Never liked the BK bar because it mounts near your head.
#28
Race Car
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Thanks. I am interested in the harnesses not necessarily because I think I am driving hard enough to need them from a safety perspective, but rather because I want to be held in place more securely than my factory 3-pt belts and reclining seats can hold me. Once I get belts, I see the HANS device as a part of the package.
I don't think that the seats and harness will cause me to drive any more aggressively (I still need to drive the car home at the end of the day, after all), but hopefully I will be able to expend less energy bracing myself in the seat.
Don't over compensate for bad seats with bolting yourself to it and having nothing to save you from getting crushed......
Just my .002 cents
Be safe whatever you decide, listen to your instructors and have fun
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#29
The Penguin King
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I look at this from a probabilistic point of view. There are rollovers at DE's, but they are pretty rare compared to hitting stuff. The harness & HANS setup makes you much safer in my opinion in the large proportion of the incidents you are likely to encounter (i.e. hitting stuff), but may compromise safety in what I consider a low probability incident.
On a risk-weighted basis, I think you are still safer with harness/HANS/harness bar than you are with a three point. Are you safer still with a roll bar? Yes, though an A-piller collapse in a rollover could still be a problem.
On a risk-weighted basis, I think you are still safer with harness/HANS/harness bar than you are with a three point. Are you safer still with a roll bar? Yes, though an A-piller collapse in a rollover could still be a problem.
#30
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This a really good subject. The veteran racer/ instructors have either been in or witnessed a big time roll over. The OP is located in NY area so I would imagine a couple of popular tracks being Lime Rock and WG. I have watched pretty dramatic roll-overs during both race and DE events at WG and Lime rock.
Roll bars work!!! A couple of years back a veteran DE driver in our region had a violent roll over in T9 at Summit Point in a 993. The roof collapsed and was molded to the shape of the upper roll hoop. The engine and trans had actually snapped apart from the violent rotation. Driver walked away. Without the roll bar there could have been a fatality.
Roll bars work!!! A couple of years back a veteran DE driver in our region had a violent roll over in T9 at Summit Point in a 993. The roof collapsed and was molded to the shape of the upper roll hoop. The engine and trans had actually snapped apart from the violent rotation. Driver walked away. Without the roll bar there could have been a fatality.