LRP Club Race, I too was black flagged......
05-01-2012, 01:47 PM
#31
Former Vendor
i kind of like what indy car came up with. i think its "one move"
you get one move. come right, great, but now you have to stay right, you cant go back left to correct when the trailing car backs off.
as a trailer car, you need some race craft to go a bit deeper, turn in later, and get on the power big time early and get them before the next turn.
just from an enforceability perspective, the one move rule, i think is easier for a corner worker to figure out. they move over, fine. they move back, black flag.
i think Mike said, "its not DE running". to force guys to take the typical, customary DE line through a turn, i think, eliminates one of the more fun components to racing. and, as ive seen and been witness to, if you cant make that move, then guys use that plus the 13/13 concept to bomb into turns. just get behind a guy, move over, he cant, go 100 feet deeper and even if you almost wreck and total compromise the turn for you, him and eveyrone else, its yours because the lead car has to stay left.
imho, its a crippling rule, its DE junk. and i think a lto of racing organizations have come to the conclusion that defensive driving can help instill competition and require more thought and craft. the one move rule i think works really well for a host of reasons.
05-01-2012, 01:50 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
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However, to be in the middle of the track does not help anybody. Doesn't help the leading driver, the chasing driver, the corner worker, the stewards, and God knows who else....
If you want to be fast, stay on the traditional line. If you want to protect, stay inside. But to be "in the middle" is neither here or there. It sends the wrong message to those officiating for the race. It says "I don't know what to do or what I am trying to accomplish".
A definitive attitude on the track will never be reprimended. Half ways, are always open for interpretation.
If you want to be fast, stay on the traditional line. If you want to protect, stay inside. But to be "in the middle" is neither here or there. It sends the wrong message to those officiating for the race. It says "I don't know what to do or what I am trying to accomplish".
A definitive attitude on the track will never be reprimended. Half ways, are always open for interpretation.
But, is there a rule in PCA that says after a certain amount of blue flagging it turns black? I'm not aware if there is, but that might explain why we're seeing a bunch of these.
In any case, persistent defense like that is going to prompt a competitor to get more and more aggressive in his passing attempt until he succeeds. Especially if he is faster. That is potentially unsafe, and for that reason, in Club Racing, after awhile one should stop the antics and allow a good pass, by a faster car. Then get on that guy's *** and take up the chase. It's called racing.
In any case, persistent defense like that is going to prompt a competitor to get more and more aggressive in his passing attempt until he succeeds. Especially if he is faster. That is potentially unsafe, and for that reason, in Club Racing, after awhile one should stop the antics and allow a good pass, by a faster car. Then get on that guy's *** and take up the chase. It's called racing.
05-01-2012, 03:09 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
At 8:30 and 10:30 the Boxster got alongside you but you still turned in, forcing him either off the track or to brake harder (which is not possible if threshold braking). IMHO your error is that you left him too much room on the inside, then when he got there you pinched him off more than once. Not sure if that deserved a black flag but if you had contact I would blame you for not leaving racing room.
05-01-2012, 04:11 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mike, the blue boxster at 0:09 pinches me in the grass and forces me to brake hard, right at the start.....
I never gave it a second thought...... maybe I am old fashion and of the philosophy that if I want something I got to earn it.....
I never gave it a second thought...... maybe I am old fashion and of the philosophy that if I want something I got to earn it.....
05-01-2012, 04:15 PM
#35
Former Vendor
At 8:30 and 10:30 the Boxster got alongside you but you still turned in, forcing him either off the track or to brake harder (which is not possible if threshold braking). IMHO your error is that you left him too much room on the inside, then when he got there you pinched him off more than once. Not sure if that deserved a black flag but if you had contact I would blame you for not leaving racing room.
05-01-2012, 05:00 PM
#36
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mike, i looked at those. confusing at first, but i think the 830 and 1030 at turn 1, the OP does what others suggested was wrong, which is float down the middle of the track, not to the left, not all the way to the inside but down the middle which is just as confusing. but i believ the boxster goes to the outside, not the inside. i dont think in turn 1 he's on his right side, but left. maybe im all confused with the camera angle but i dont think he pinched him in/closed the door on him.
05-01-2012, 07:27 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Whoops nevermind, Paolo did no chop at all at 8:30 and 10:30. Paolo did get chopped at the start of the race. No need for any flags but if there were contact, I wouldn't want to be the Steward....
05-02-2012, 12:11 PM
#38
FrenchToast:
First of all, the flagger are all volunteers.
Secondly, yes, they make their own decisions regarding waving yellows.
I think I know of the incident you are describing. The car came thorough the downhill and his throttle stuck. The driver pushed in the clutch and turned off the ignition and pulled off and coasted to a stop. I'm guessing he was pretty smooth about it and he was off track before the flaggers noticed the problem. If he's 10' off track, why would the flagger throw a waving yellows? A Waving yellow means "Danger, slow down safely, no passing". A car 10' off the track isn't a danger.
I'm guessing the flagger radioed to the Tower the car was off track (tower can see that part of the track) and the Steward didn't like what he saw so he instructed the Downhill flagger to throw a standing yellow. A few minutes later they decided to send out the tow truck to get the car and that brought out the double yellow. They probably made that decision for the reasons you stated.
In my race, we had a car go off track on the inside of the downhill section. After I came through West Bend, I saw a standing yellow. As I started the downhill, I saw the car slowly rolling/bouncing through the grass on driver's right. Next lap, still a standing yellow. 3rd lap, no flag. They assumed we'd all see the yellow on the previous lap, so we knew the car was in the grass, no need for a standing yellow. The car remained there for the remainder of the race.
This is a race. They don't just throw yellows because a car is stopped on the side of the track.
First of all, the flagger are all volunteers.
Secondly, yes, they make their own decisions regarding waving yellows.
I think I know of the incident you are describing. The car came thorough the downhill and his throttle stuck. The driver pushed in the clutch and turned off the ignition and pulled off and coasted to a stop. I'm guessing he was pretty smooth about it and he was off track before the flaggers noticed the problem. If he's 10' off track, why would the flagger throw a waving yellows? A Waving yellow means "Danger, slow down safely, no passing". A car 10' off the track isn't a danger.
I'm guessing the flagger radioed to the Tower the car was off track (tower can see that part of the track) and the Steward didn't like what he saw so he instructed the Downhill flagger to throw a standing yellow. A few minutes later they decided to send out the tow truck to get the car and that brought out the double yellow. They probably made that decision for the reasons you stated.
In my race, we had a car go off track on the inside of the downhill section. After I came through West Bend, I saw a standing yellow. As I started the downhill, I saw the car slowly rolling/bouncing through the grass on driver's right. Next lap, still a standing yellow. 3rd lap, no flag. They assumed we'd all see the yellow on the previous lap, so we knew the car was in the grass, no need for a standing yellow. The car remained there for the remainder of the race.
This is a race. They don't just throw yellows because a car is stopped on the side of the track.
If the car say spun after Big Bend to the inside (right side) before the esses then that isn't as pressing. The car is off-line (well, probably is) on a part of the track that is slower and more visible.
On the other hand, the Downhill, though it may not be the corner where the most passes are made it surely is the corner that out of all the corners where the car is under the most load, and from a 'line' standpoint one of the harder or hardest corner to do correctly by the driver. If you had to pick a corner to be surprised at that surely isn't the one. The car is on the track out side, close to track out, on a corner where all cars fully track out or sometimes put a wheel in the dirt/grass.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the corner workers at that station should have decided themselves to throw a local yellow, before they contact the tower or get a response, given the location of the off car instead of waiting an entire lap for a response.
For all corners I think the corner workers should have the presence of mind to issue a flag they deem suitable (yellow, local yellow, waving yellow, hopefully not red) if the situation is a safety issue. The corner workers should know what situation require a fast decision, and be able to recognize such a situation.
I'm just tryin to bring up a concern I have. I've never raced (would like to) so don't really know per-say, just explaining my surprise at the situation.
Take care!
05-02-2012, 12:44 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
The PCA rule, which is not actually printed in the rules, is that the overtaking car needs to be ahead at turn in.
Lots of good discussion here on blocking.
05-02-2012, 01:23 PM
#40
Flaggers should never, ever, ever have the authority to throw black, red or double yellows without permission from race control.
Putting out standing or waving yellows is their job and they shouldn't require permission to do so.
We need them to do this ,we want them to do this.
The debris flag seems to be more of a common sense flag. If there is something on the track ,let the drivers know.
The blue /orange flag is informational only.It IS NOT a move over flag.It's simply telling a driver(s) faster cars are behind you.The last thing we want a slower car to do is suddenly and without warning move off their established line in order to let faster cars by.
Lastly, if PCA wants to have a "Big Boy" racing series with points, championships and contingencies they need to have a set of "big boy" rules.
The 13/13 rule is a must. I wish SCCA had it.
But, infractions or alleged infractions committed during a race should be dealt with differently than just black flagging someone and ending their race.
Post race protests by the organizers and/or competitors need to be allowed in order to sort out the alleged transgressions.
In car camera footage, eye wittness testimony etc will generally lead to a rational conclusion.
A post race "court of appeals" made up club officials and non vested drivers would be a nice addition.
It may sound cumbersome but I think it could be made to work.
Tom B.
Putting out standing or waving yellows is their job and they shouldn't require permission to do so.
We need them to do this ,we want them to do this.
The debris flag seems to be more of a common sense flag. If there is something on the track ,let the drivers know.
The blue /orange flag is informational only.It IS NOT a move over flag.It's simply telling a driver(s) faster cars are behind you.The last thing we want a slower car to do is suddenly and without warning move off their established line in order to let faster cars by.
Lastly, if PCA wants to have a "Big Boy" racing series with points, championships and contingencies they need to have a set of "big boy" rules.
The 13/13 rule is a must. I wish SCCA had it.
But, infractions or alleged infractions committed during a race should be dealt with differently than just black flagging someone and ending their race.
Post race protests by the organizers and/or competitors need to be allowed in order to sort out the alleged transgressions.
In car camera footage, eye wittness testimony etc will generally lead to a rational conclusion.
A post race "court of appeals" made up club officials and non vested drivers would be a nice addition.
It may sound cumbersome but I think it could be made to work.
Tom B.
05-02-2012, 01:36 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Sorry if it is a sore topic, but i am just curious - what is actually the procedure in such cases in club racing when people do prepare, do spend pretty penny to get into race and then they get black flagged, let`s say, incorrectly? Or isit considered to be a 'normal' situation when any flagger is entitled to make a decision who deserves to race and who does not?
I am just surprised to see al least 2 people here speaking of same topic with such a variety of opinions.
I am just surprised to see al least 2 people here speaking of same topic with such a variety of opinions.
05-02-2012, 01:43 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=Phokaioglaukos;9495619]The PCA rule, which is not actually printed in the rules, is that the overtaking car needs to be ahead at turn in.
QUOTE]
That is not correct. The car making the pass must do cleanly almost no matter what otherwise it is a 13 to the passing car. He must be completely clear and complete the pass without contact.
QUOTE]
That is not correct. The car making the pass must do cleanly almost no matter what otherwise it is a 13 to the passing car. He must be completely clear and complete the pass without contact.
05-02-2012, 01:54 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
More in that post, but the nub of it is here, and in driver's meetings--not the rule book!
The concept is this: In a basic corner the car ahead at turn-in has the corner. Notice I did not say owns the corner. No one owns the corner. The overriding principal is racing room. Remember that racing room is the responsibility of all cars and that includes the car making the pass. He has a much better view in most cases. We have the car ahead at turn in to give a clearly defined point where certain things should happen for a correct clean pass. The passing car that did not or will not get to that position should start to back out of the pass. This point leaves plenty of room for that to occur in most cases if the passing car is under control. You can say well I want any overlap or up to the door etc to be the point. In most cases you actually mean somewhere before the apex. Getting even at turn-in is much easier to determine. Remember an at fault decision has to be made. Even then we can’t go out and measure where two cars are placed so a couple of feet either way is probably what you can determine. If they are even + or – they should share the corner. You can’t tell from most in car video from the cars who actually touch including ones shown in this thread what the relative position actually is at turn in. Following video works much better. Everyone should have video.
Even in PCA I don't think the rule is that the overtaking car gets the 13 if there is contact.
05-02-2012, 02:06 PM
#44
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Lastly, if PCA wants to have a "Big Boy" racing series with points, championships and contingencies they need to have a set of "big boy" rules.
The 13/13 rule is a must. I wish SCCA had it.
But, infractions or alleged infractions committed during a race should be dealt with differently than just black flagging someone and ending their race.
Post race protests by the organizers and/or competitors need to be allowed in order to sort out the alleged transgressions.
In car camera footage, eye wittness testimony etc will generally lead to a rational conclusion.
A post race "court of appeals" made up club officials and non vested drivers would be a nice addition.
It may sound cumbersome but I think it could be made to work.
Tom B.
The 13/13 rule is a must. I wish SCCA had it.
But, infractions or alleged infractions committed during a race should be dealt with differently than just black flagging someone and ending their race.
Post race protests by the organizers and/or competitors need to be allowed in order to sort out the alleged transgressions.
In car camera footage, eye wittness testimony etc will generally lead to a rational conclusion.
A post race "court of appeals" made up club officials and non vested drivers would be a nice addition.
It may sound cumbersome but I think it could be made to work.
Tom B.
Race Control, a paid hire by POC, is in radio contact with all the flag stations and has the authority to black flag someone for obvious blocking, safety issues, or unsportsmanlike driving. They would usually consult with a POC rep in the tower before making such a serious call, but they have that authority. I can remember that happening once about 3 years ago at Laguna when a visiting pro driver took to weaving down the straight to impede a competitor from passing. He was black flagged and DQ'd….
05-02-2012, 02:12 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Look at SCCA rules--competitors can protest one another and there is also an appeal process. Contrast with PCA where we rely on the stewards. If the steward does not see the incident or has another view of it, that's the end of it.
I like having the choice of the PCA way or the SCCA way, but in my SCCA region there are no GTC3 (SCCA GT2) cars, so it's not much of a choice!
I like having the choice of the PCA way or the SCCA way, but in my SCCA region there are no GTC3 (SCCA GT2) cars, so it's not much of a choice!