Veloce Raptor

Wait...were you using the SAME SEAT in the crash that is still in your car???????

Exactly. Wow.

OGRacing

We still have the program in place and have sent 10-15 seats out via the progam in the last year.
Mark, when the budget allows look at the current offering of seats that have head restraint.

Bill

mark kibort

im not convinced about the FIA fuel cells how many have you seen not work in crashes. certainly they can be very fickel. the original plastic colapsible tanks on the cup cars of the 996 , were very good, and is very similar to what i run in the 928, thats why they let me run it in WCGT. (as well as Anderson)

HANS is such a great requirement. (regardless of manufacturer) too bad there were too many deaths before this invention!

I think its the seat being at too much of an angle.

I know! ive been razzed by my local racer buds about it, especially those with the shops.

oops, yes. yeah, it did its job, to take out my ribs!!! as crapy as that seat is, in a frontal crash, very little force is put on the seat, and it doesnt take much side impact to break ribs if you have a seat as lousy for racing as mine. it was perfectly designed to break ribs. the crash was mostly head on, but at a slight enough angle to take advantage of the low side containment lip, specicallly designed to allow your ribs to take the brunt of the impact.

Bill, lets talk about it. I would like to see what seats you have or that you can offer with that deal. Im paring back the racing a littlle bit this year, so i should be able to put the seat in. before getting back in the full swing again, next season.

kurt M

Let me get the straight. You have a seat that;
1. You think is installed wrong.
2. Other people razz you about the seat being installed wrong.
3. Has been is a crash.
4. Broke your ribs in said slight offset crash.
5. Is too short for the driver.
6. Has no head and upper torso protection.

All this and it is the H&N device that sucks? Um, well OK then.

A pile of "legal" parts does not make up a good system. The parts need to work together. Name brand and being new mean little over good method and common sense used during install and use.

Veloce Raptor

Mark, all our previous razzing aside, I am STUNNED. I simply cannot fathom how or why ANYONE--especially someone who has repeatedly claimed such extensive race experience and knowledge--would continue to use a race shell that had been in a serious wreck, irrespective of whether you were injured or not. "Oops"? OOPS????

Mark, you are lucky to be alive...and luckier still that you have had no further accidents with that seat.

Luck is not a strategy just like hope is not a way to run a nation.

I am blown away by this.



Kurt is right. Irrespective of being sold a pig in a poke of a 12+ year old HANS of unclear provenance, that was billed as being "5 years old", the priimary issue is what's inside your car...and inside your head.

Wow.

BBMGT3

+100

Just because (thankfully) you only sustained minor injuries in your last crash, does not mean that "Yup, everything worked well enough". One near-miss does not a good statistic make.

Without being presumptuous, the logic and merits of this piece of equipment or that are beyond the expertise of most of us, so I would caution against making individual judgement calls

M758

If a car is wrecked badly enough to be a write off then the harness, seat are junk. No question about it. If the helmet has scratch on it, toss it too.

The excption to the crash and replace the gear comes in for a minor fender bender. One where bend some sheet metal, but don't do any serious damage.

mark kibort

now, just hold on here arm chair safety officers.

No, the seat is installed perfectly. Its an FAI approved seat that is old, but still legal. if it wasnt safe, the rules wouldnt allow for it to be used.'
Other people have not razzed me about it being installed wrong. i have seen MUCH more expensive cars with "correct" custom installations that have failed in BIG ways . again, the seat is installed correctly.

it is not too short for the drive. the pictures of me are sitting a litle higher than i would normally sit. did that check after i saw the picture and its correct, but marginal i will admit.
no head and upper torso protection? its a race seat made like any other race seat, from the day. yes, it needs to be replaced due to its age and design, but there is nothing dangerous about it , even after being in the crash. a seat like this does very little in a frontal crash and has to be strong enough to support rear impact. side impact, its useless and if those side molds were to fail , it might be a better thing you are kept in your seat and in position by the belts, not the seat in a frontal . side to side movement is controled by newer and containment seats, which we all know.

the systems dont need tunign for their parts. helmet and hans are separate, belts are standard,and the only variable is the seat. it should fit to be comfortable and give good driving position. my car is set up with pedals and wheel that an inclination of the seat worked best for me. I dont get tired driving , its comfortable, im locked in position, and i have good vision and control. ive driven a few other cars with better equip and didnt feel as safe or as comforable in my set up.

mark kibort

yes, Dave, i have a lot of racing experience. (its not claimed dave, 100s of race days, where you have very few) ive built a few of these cars. the seat is my only weak link in the car, however it is still doing as it has been designed to do.
I understand the risks of using the older seat. its still legal. if it was "unfathamable" then, why are these seats still legal? these are strong , CF, fiberglass structures that can break a rib without being structurally compromized. as i said, the seat is not optimal, and is contributing to the fit of the hans, but still the hans device is not 15 years old. its 2005 dated on the date sheet on the device. used on a few times by a known racer that race with it only a few times. I know, ive known him and his car as long as he has been racing, and water skied in competition with the guy many years ago. he isnt a liar.

settle down. the seat has a little too much anglation for optimal fit, thats it. you guys are blowing this way out of proportion.

Yet, you get in cars , going as fast or faster ,with a lap belt. YOU my friend, are insane! i dont do DE street cars unless i know the guy and have complete mental control of the student. and would NEVER be in one of those tracks on a super speedway in just a polo shirt and a helmet like you do.

Now, tone it back a bit and lets talk abou the HANs. it should fit better than it does and its not all the seats fault. THATS the discussion here.

mark kibort

my equipment didnt work well enough, it worked perfectly. the chassis, cage and belt system did their jobs. the seat was substandard, as it was cut too low to contain side movement, and subsequentialy, i broke ribs. its the chance i took by not upgrading. keep in mind this was an extremely high speed impact into a wall at a turn going near 100mph. the same turn that most nascars get written off going near the same speeds. (as well as drivers being helecoptered out).

mark kibort

lets get back to the point. i have legal belts, new helmet, 2005 hans and the fit is not very good. a lot of slop in the set up and it all cant be blamed on the seat's angle. they have the right belt distance at the attachement point, correct angles and distances . yet, the straps can fall to the side without the newer version "wings". very disapointed of how un-secure the set up is. Ill do some testing with it before my next race and see how it works,. or i might just break down and get the replacement seat before hand. leaning that direction. point is, its a great invention but certainly needs the updates to be safe. its design had some major weaknesses or they wouldnt have changed it.. I see guys in the supercup series on TV all the time with the 650! just watch a taping of monaco GT3 supercup where the championship leader had a 650 in a TV closeup.

onefastviking

Mark,
Don't take my word or VR's word for it, read from page 86 on, I believe you do have a Sparco, correct ?

http://www.sparcousa.com/resourceFil...%20CATALOG.pdf

The seats are designed to deform and save your body. Once they have been in a crash and have deformed and absorbed the forces to save your body they should not be reused, you can't necessarily see if it is or isn't deformed. This is the same with helmets, drop one on the ground and you should replace it.
Your old seat would make a great simulator seat but that's about it. Sell it for what you can get as a simulator seat and talk to Bill or Mark at OG racing and they will work you a great deal on a new seat, the difference will be very minimal and then you will have a new seat.

Also if you search the Sparco site they explain the correct mounting angles for seats in different types of applications. HANS also is very clear on their website in how the HANS should be positioned.

I wouldn't go by what you see another racer doing, even if a pro, go by what the manufacturer of the safety equipment says to do.

winders

Cue the face palm.....

Scott

mark kibort

Its a good set up now. ive spent 24hours in cars with much worse set ups that were newer and theoretically better, but the most important thing with seat is comfort and position. ive driven 5-6 928s with very expensive to very cheap seats and belt systems and I think mine is best by far . I think im a pretty good judge of what is good in a race car. Now, the area which the seat fails in my opinion, is that it is slightly too angled, and doesnt have enough side containment.

I will be switching out the the seat though. However this wont change the Hans fit that much . that is major on my mind. if anyone thinks they fit perfect, take the hans of and strap yourself in and see if the side to side movemement is the same or worse. its gong to be worse. the belts are going over something that disconnects their function via a smooth surface. its almost like the belts should be redesigned to fit in the hans device . the wings are a good start, but they should actually fit in tunnels, if i was to desgn it. IMHO, the hutchenes was a better fitting and functioning setup, but a pain to get on.

thanks!
Mark

M758

Any yet you choose to re-use the same seat? Really?

So you know got hurt due to the seat and even after that you chose to use it again? Why just consider yourself lucky and get a better seat? I am using an older Sparco Pro2000. It is over 5 years old so I used a seat back brace. I not fan of wing seats as they tend to cut down on periperial vision. I prefer the side nets. Even so my seat holds in well has never been a significant wreck. There have be a few dented fenders here and there, but nothing hard.

Mark please get a new seat...