winders

Joe,

Duh!!! Can you make a more obvious statement? The point is that Hans Devices are very well engineered. Would you disagree with that?

Scott

Circuit Motorsports

Very well engineered for an F1 cockpit. yes.

winders

Joe,

So you don't think the Hans Device is well engineered for sports car cockpits?

Even though though the Hans Device was initially designed for race cars with more upright seating position than Formula cars? Even though they have models specifically designed for sports car cockpits?

Scott

mark kibort

Yes, it is badly designed. if i have to sacrafice being bolted in to the car, for my head flying off my neck, its not a good design. yes, things get mandated all the time, that are not perfect. this design is far from perfect, thats why its been changed to have those wings now to keep the belt in place.
now the concept is great, as i said, i had a head and neck restraint system , that i sometimes used, but it was a major hassle to get on. this device, has some fundamental problem wtih the belts , in that when you are belted in with only belts, the friction on your suit and skin is tremendous. you cant move. with the hans, you are free to slide frontwards as the belt slids on the low friction surface of the hans surface. becuase i have to modify my belts that meet the specs of the Hans design, i have to say, its not a good design. any good design, doesnt need help impoving.

Now, just because folks here are either used to it or it doesnt bother them, doesnt make it ideal. maybe, the fact that i can move, doesnt make that much of a differnce in a frontal crash. maybe that movement is part of the design. i dont know, thats why im posting here about it , to discuss. it.

Veloce Raptor

Wow.

mark kibort

you get in race cars, and student cars all the time, and risk your life with what amounts to almost NO knowlege of the cars structual integrity. we justify things like that all the time. Now, a helmet , taking a hit, and being rendered useless, is a stretch, especially how we use the helmets, but i do believe you have a point there a hans? maybe.
I wouldnt buy a used one from anyone. it was a fellow racer that bought it for him and his wife and they immediately stopped racing. so the stuff is in good shape, and I know the owners . not a big chance . in retrospect, i wishi i spent the extra few hundred bucks for the newer version

sometimes. agian, look at our cars. things break all the time and most of the parts are someone else's. (unless you build brand new from the ground up)

I agree ,with limits. we are all smart guys here. i think we know when buying used is a big risk. i buy used tires all the time, which is much more risky, but i usually want to know where they came from, and do a pretty close inspection before hand.

it was cheap and I knew where it came from . its only 5 years old and hasnt been used in a few years as well. certainly, it was much less of a bargain than i originally thought, so on that point, you are right.

mark kibort

Dave, stop it before you go any further. either add some value here or go away and ill post pictures of you on the beach again!

4WHLDRFTN

Mark , if the belts and seat are correct, that style hans works fine. It seems that your belts may just be to far apart (through the seat)

winders

If you are relying on the "the friction on your suit and skin" from the belts to hold you in place, something is wrong with your belt system. Friction should not be involved other than to keep the belts from loosening.

Scott

mark kibort

i wish i had video of the movement the body can take with the HANS in my car. correct angles, correct distances, correct sized belts, new helmet with 2010 hans predrilled holes, and i strap myself in as tight as possible and its night and day compared to without the hans., not to mention that the belts want to slide off to the sides. yeah, great design!! Im actually pretty disappointed . seems pretty obvious that they knew that the belts coming off the sides is a big problem, thats why there are little stupid velcro straps that are supposed to attach to some velcro on the belts to keep them in position. the entire design should have a guide rail from top to bottom to make it fit properly

Ill post the pictures when i download them in a few mins.

mark kibort

i measured, it is exactly 3" apart. (inside of the belt to the other belt) i even ring'ed it to make it closer to help, but its still far from acceptable in my mind. guess ill have to live with it, or someone will have to help me find out what im doing wong
thanks
Mark

J richard

Mark, we've been informed that NASA will start inspecting HNR just like helmets SFI/Fia certs. One issue is that any device involved in an accident has to be sent back to the MFGr for inspection and at the very least the tethers replaced. The other important point of inspection is the friction surface on the top of the shoulders that provides the mechanical grip to the belts. If yours is really slipping around I would seriously consider sending it back for recertification. I think it's pretty cheap insurance.

Veloce Raptor

Mark, I call BS on it being "only 5 years old". My HANS was made in very early 2005, and it has the raised edges that keep the belts in place. That make mine SEVEN years old. That "5" year old HANS you thought you bought is likely 8 or more years old...

Uh...I already added value, lunchbox, as your posts above acknowledge when you say "good points"

Circuit Motorsports

No while the impetus was for 'sports' car cockpits, it's well engineered for purpose built cars and lots of early money came from F1 (mercedes in particular). The models aren't 'designed' for sports car cockpits or any cockpit in particular. They are 'designed' for the angle of seating.

1. Belt mounting architecture greatly helps the system. HANS recommend the belts are ideally 6-8" behind the driver. Easy in a formula car, not so much in most tin tops.

2. Belt mount width. As Mark did mention earlier. If using 3" belts you should have a 3" gap between them so the belts come around the yoke of the device, not just on the runners. Show me a sports car seat that has shoulder harness holes that close together.

3. The level of protection afforded by offset impacts is signifcantly less than it is for head on. In a formula one car you have a full cockpit surround that doesn't allow the head to move laterally. Halo seats don't give as much coverage and side nets are a bandaid (of which most are incorrectly mounted). NASCAR gets aroudn this by having HUGE helmet surrounds and people on the radio telling them about the cars they can't see because of them.

4. Belts stretch in an impact. What happens in teh second impact. I know people who have had belts come off their HANS after an intial impact. The next impact the device would have been useless. Negative for both open wheel and tintop but it's an engineering issue that HANS hasn't really worked towards it would seem. I think while in many cases the 'connection' of HANS is fine, it sure would be nice to have something that is positively connected.

mark kibort

Its hard to decribe without showing a video of the movement. normally, when im locked in, and i lean forward, you can see the suit and my skin are locked down. with the HANS, i do the same movement, and the lack of friction allows the belts to move on the surfaces of the HANS, and i can shift forward. Now, i have to admit, the seat is a little more reclinded that i would like and that is part of the problem. in fact, when i remember the containment seat i ran in a BMW, i would say , this problem would not be as bad or a problem at all.
when i post the pictures , you will see what im talking about.