Mark in Baltimore

This answer, and the incorrect assumptions it addresses, goes to the heart of the matter. Some of you guys seem to delight in being contrarian trolls and need to look up the definition of hypocrisy.

early_grayce

Disagree.

+1
I think it's a great idea to discuss accidents... more to learn from, and this is a great forum for that. The moderators just need to keep track of the asshats and eliminate pictures/names... and ban as needed for being an idiot.

If you're concerned about the condition of someone start a separate thread just asking about someone's condition, avoiding the details of the accident. Or just PM someone who might know.
My 2cents.

analogmike

I do believe a "slower" (in lap time, but more powerful) car, who pointed-by without lifting, may have contributed to the Cayman driver's error, but as in racing, the passing car is responsible for making the pass safely. When you execute a late pass, you need to slow the car more as you will be off line for the corner. Same thing happened to me there over ten years ago when I was on cold tires and passed a car a bit late. My car landed in the old gravel trap with no damage, luckily.

M758

Hmmm better to put them into a higher run group with more liberal passing rules than stick in the intermediate DE with restrictive passing rules and other drivers not prepared for racing type passes.

A racing in good standing can handle thier car on track under racing conditions. That means cars all over the place... No big deal. They also expect certain levels of skills for the drivers around them. DE drivers have less skill and less awareness. Why would you EVER want to put a racer in with DE drivers still learning. It takes MORE skill for a racer to back it down to a DE level and play nice thant to put him in with all the fast cars and guys with plenty of track awareness.

BTW... I started racing in April 2002. I have not run DE in many years. 4 weeks ago I did run 2 DE sessions doing lead and follow with another 944spec driver in an effort support their development. Man... reminded me of how much of a pain DE really is. Those sessions were worthless for me, but thankfully were not intended for my enjoyment, but to support the other driver of which they were sucessfull.

Bob Rouleau

DE is not racing. Racers who attend DEs are expected to adjust their expectations and show proper etiquette. I recall the Flying Lizards attending one of our DEs to learn the track - they were perfectly polite on track in spite of having a very fast car and over-the-top skills. If pros can do it, why not amateur racers?

M758

Were they put in white and needed a check ride? Or were they just explained DE rules and put in the fastest DE group?

KaiB

Interesting question....

MikeJim

Thanks for responding to the OP and not setting your hair on fire in the process. I can report that many of us ran in the Black group Sat-Sun at WG with Zone 1 and had no problems. When the Lime Rock boys showed up Monday, it was an entirely new ballgame with a different set of playing rules.

After an abysmal first day of no point-bys and blazingly fast cars mixed in with first-time solos (fast cars, slow drivers) and low-HP vintage cars (slow cars, fast drivers), a special meeting was called Tuesday and the riot act was read.

What resulted was a whole bunch of freaked out drivers giving LATE point-bys in the braking zones or in non-passing areas. Often, when a pass was declined, the lead car would abruptly brake for no apparent reason other than to force a pass. It was equal parts frustrating and frightening.

While this thread may have instantly veered off into a discussion about the political correctness of posting a photo of a damaged car (for which I now formally apologize to all involved), the OP was a sincere inquiry as to (1) the condition of the driver(s) involved and (2) the cause of the incident, and whether slower traffic may have contributed to it.

You have answered my question, and for that I am thankful. The greater question is why a greater effort is not made to place drivers who travel to other tracks in proper run groups. The driver of the Cayman Interseries car and I (and many others) were bumped back to a lower run group by Connecticut PCA, despite having run the two previous days at WG. We were fully up to speed and were suddenly dropped into a dangerous mix of cars.

Yes, we could have all slowed down and played "train." Will that make us better drivers?

Matt Romanowski

X2.

Does it matter? If they show up at a DE, they are expected to follow the rules. I've seen plenty of "racers" show up at events and completely suck.

Plus, what group would Seth Neiman really belong in?

M758

One problem I see is that in when you have a comp license their is an expectation of certain stills. Most groups put you into what ever race group your car fits in. Pretty simple run group classification. Skill levels do vary in race group, but there is a certain minimum skill level expected. This means if you have never run with that organization before they still recongnize the comp license in PCA, SCCA, NASA or Pro series.


In DE there is no card that you carry that denotes skill level. So if the organizers do not know you they tend to assume the worst and force you into a slower group. It is for caution, but really if you can produced a comp license or a NASA Time Trial license that should automatically put you in the top or near the top group of any DE. Why? Those licenses show that you can handle a car on track with open passing. Sure you may not know the track, but at driver at this level should be capable of learning the the track to high level quite fast. Sure it may take time to achieve 100% on a new track, but running 90% should not take long. Forcing racer into an intermediate DE group just because you don't "know" them is silly. It is asking for trouble as firstly you are telling the racer they have no skills, then you put them into a group where they will be fast in the corners that most of the other guys and you put them with a bunch of drivers who are probably not ready to have a racer filling their mirrors turn after turn. If they were they probably would not be in that group in the first place.

M758

Yes they must follow DE rules. However are you going to put them in an intermediate DE and force them to do 2 check rides just because they have never run the track nor have run with your organzation?

As for Seth... Well he may not be on the level of his pro drivers, but believe me I would expect him to do just fine at PCA DE. So yes the do need to play by the rules, but the rules are different for each DE run group. No need to put them in a group where there are restrictive rules. No you put them in the fastest most experineced run group and expect them to play by the rules. If you are worried have someone watch them on the first session to be sure they are playing nice.

spare tire

Can we accept Mikejim's apology for the photo and agree that in the future we shall only post photo's of our own cars and semi-naked women. It also seems clear that Conneticut PCA could improve their DE experience by addressing complaints so they do not turn into 10 page threads on Rennlist.

P.S. I have seen/ driven on track with PCA club racers with s__itty skills. The licence does not guarantee that you are good.

Matt Romanowski

Expectations are sort of like assumptions, and we all know what assuming something results in - making an *** out of you and me. If you won't admit that there are plenty of racers with crappy skills, then we can't have an honest discussion.

I think the Flying Lizards is an extreme example. Obviously, anyone on that team is going to be be ok in the highest run group, Seth included. In the end though, they are expected to follow the rules of the group - good or bad.

M758

If I am running a DE organization and someone I don't know shows up with comp license and a race car I am NOT going to put them in anything less than the highest DE group. I may very well ask questions about thier experience level at the track and in racing overall. From there I will default to the fastest run group pending some observation. If they don't want to run in that group and want to run lower fine. If they seem to be struggling then I may need to move them down.

Sure some racers are not very good, but if you are a racer you should at minimum be able to handle high speed traffic. You should be capable and comfortable having cars pass you at any place on the track. You don't need to turn good lap times, but you can't survive in race group without track awareness.

For me lower DE groups are there not due to lap times, but due to track awareness and focus. A first time novice needs restricted passing due not having the bandwidth to drive and by 100% aware of their surroundings. That is where instructors come in to help out. As the drivers progress they need less focus on just staying on track and can put more focus on traffic around them. The highest levels of DE should have drivers very aware of their surroundings. They don't need to put in crushing lap times, but must be aware of what is going on aroud them. That is why they can get away with more liberal pasing rules. Once you graduate to race group you are in free for all and will have cars all around you and should be the most aware of that traffic. Hitting apexes is great, but in race group the number 1 goal is to be aware of traffic.

So I will always assume anyone with a comp license either for race or NASA Time Trial where open passing is allowed, has the track awareness to run in the highest DE group in any DE organization around the country. That is my starting assumption rather than assuming them to fools who can't drive and sticking them with bunch of intermediates is a good idea. Well it is not a good idea for anyone.

Sean F

PCA racing is full of unaware drivers - there aren't any try outs for a racing license