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#3061
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As I said delta between compounds is huge, but I like your thinking as far as trying to maximize your abilities on street tire before jumping to R comp or stickier.
I recommend that folks starting out stay with street tires as long as they can to learn how to manage slipping around to develop better car control but at lower speeds. However, once you can easily predict and catch slides or work out of understeer then it's time to move to R comp. NT01's are the gold standard for HPDE r comps. Re71rs are another excellent tire that some think are slightly faster but I don't think last as long as NT01's.
Let me just re-iterate my own and Kevin's point though at intermediate level this should be obvious to you, you cannot compare corner speeds of your very heavy, under tired car to Foss or any other GTS2 car. Doesn't matter how much power you have because cornering speed has very little to do with power but everything to do with weight, suspension, aero and tire compound assuming lines are the same. I am not surprised your equipment is 5-10 mph slower through the higher speed corners. So in this case blame the equipment. But also know that part of driver development is to understand these things.
So you want differences between compounds?
I'd say that 1:32 is an ok time on your setup. I doubt Foss could match his GTS2 times in your car but he could probably go faster.
R comps would be worth another 3-5 seconds over summers. So 1:27 to 1:29 all other things being equal for you.
Scrub Hoosiers would get you to 1:25's.
Sticker Hoosiers would get you to 1:22's.
Shaving 800 pounds and going full track prep would get you to 1:17's. See Ken Orgerons video.
In NASA GTS and TT/ST, the cars are classed by wt to power. I believe GTS2 is 14:1. So Foss' car probably weighs 2800 lbs. let's assume your car is putting 350 to wheels , your wt to power is ~11. If you look through TT2 (8:1) and TT3 (10:1) , you'll see mid 1:25's for a lot of these drivers even they are all running Hoosiers or R comps. But Tt4 and Tt5 guys were breaking into teens, because of their lightness (and drivers). MSRC doesn't really allow the ponies to run free. Light cars with sticky tires will have an advantage over car like yours.
I recommend that folks starting out stay with street tires as long as they can to learn how to manage slipping around to develop better car control but at lower speeds. However, once you can easily predict and catch slides or work out of understeer then it's time to move to R comp. NT01's are the gold standard for HPDE r comps. Re71rs are another excellent tire that some think are slightly faster but I don't think last as long as NT01's.
Let me just re-iterate my own and Kevin's point though at intermediate level this should be obvious to you, you cannot compare corner speeds of your very heavy, under tired car to Foss or any other GTS2 car. Doesn't matter how much power you have because cornering speed has very little to do with power but everything to do with weight, suspension, aero and tire compound assuming lines are the same. I am not surprised your equipment is 5-10 mph slower through the higher speed corners. So in this case blame the equipment. But also know that part of driver development is to understand these things.
So you want differences between compounds?
I'd say that 1:32 is an ok time on your setup. I doubt Foss could match his GTS2 times in your car but he could probably go faster.
R comps would be worth another 3-5 seconds over summers. So 1:27 to 1:29 all other things being equal for you.
Scrub Hoosiers would get you to 1:25's.
Sticker Hoosiers would get you to 1:22's.
Shaving 800 pounds and going full track prep would get you to 1:17's. See Ken Orgerons video.
In NASA GTS and TT/ST, the cars are classed by wt to power. I believe GTS2 is 14:1. So Foss' car probably weighs 2800 lbs. let's assume your car is putting 350 to wheels , your wt to power is ~11. If you look through TT2 (8:1) and TT3 (10:1) , you'll see mid 1:25's for a lot of these drivers even they are all running Hoosiers or R comps. But Tt4 and Tt5 guys were breaking into teens, because of their lightness (and drivers). MSRC doesn't really allow the ponies to run free. Light cars with sticky tires will have an advantage over car like yours.
#3062
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Originally Posted by Capt_and
Just following up on this post, you are nearly spot on with the deltas. On the summers I was able to get down to 1:29s, I switched to RS4s (plus going square and a little more camber up front) and did 1:25s. Tried out RE71s and did 1:24. Of course there is more left on the table. I have a lesson with Foss this weekend (1.7 CW instead of CCW unfortunately) but that should put things into further perspective for me.
#3063
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Hey coach. Long time first time, here.
I've been doing the DE thing a few years, strictly with PCA/BMWCCA instruction. I've been in the upper intermediate/advanced groups and enjoying the process (taking a little more time in the top instructed group to get some more right seat instruction at the moment). That being said, earlier this week I went to a SCCA Track Night in America event at NJMP Lightning with just the intent of having fun with a few buddies. I wasn't there to work on anything specific, just get a few sessions in of screwing around and driving without expectation. Didn't take any notes, didn't track tire pressures (adjusted them, but didn't log 'em), didn't do any of the normal stuff I'd do. Just worked a half day, showed up to the track in the afternoon, drove a few sessions and went home.
We ended up chasing each other around the track, swapping passes, and all set personal bests. It was really fun.
The question is whether or not there's really any downside (or upside) to throwing a couple days a year where there is no expectation of specific goal achievement or skill development, just messing about with friends.
Video of my best lap is here. I know I'm being kinda sloppy with lines and stuff (and my god what the F am I doing with my right hand), but I was surprised that we all took multiple seconds off what we've done there in the past in a traditional DE type environment.
I've been doing the DE thing a few years, strictly with PCA/BMWCCA instruction. I've been in the upper intermediate/advanced groups and enjoying the process (taking a little more time in the top instructed group to get some more right seat instruction at the moment). That being said, earlier this week I went to a SCCA Track Night in America event at NJMP Lightning with just the intent of having fun with a few buddies. I wasn't there to work on anything specific, just get a few sessions in of screwing around and driving without expectation. Didn't take any notes, didn't track tire pressures (adjusted them, but didn't log 'em), didn't do any of the normal stuff I'd do. Just worked a half day, showed up to the track in the afternoon, drove a few sessions and went home.
We ended up chasing each other around the track, swapping passes, and all set personal bests. It was really fun.
The question is whether or not there's really any downside (or upside) to throwing a couple days a year where there is no expectation of specific goal achievement or skill development, just messing about with friends.
Video of my best lap is here. I know I'm being kinda sloppy with lines and stuff (and my god what the F am I doing with my right hand), but I was surprised that we all took multiple seconds off what we've done there in the past in a traditional DE type environment.
#3065
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Nothing like a carrot.
Hey, you're generating data. Compare and see how you did better.
My guess is you're just hustling the car better.
Hey, you're generating data. Compare and see how you did better.
My guess is you're just hustling the car better.
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www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
#3066
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I have not yet seen any data presented that refutes Adam's views. Not saying it's not out there but the conversation has never got to that level. I know there are several of us that would really like to understand the counter view more fully but I think we've settled on "agree to disagree."
I'm of the understanding that there is actually an optimal solution to getting around a track in the quickest time possible. I can't really agree to disagree, because this is not a matter of opinion, like training methodologies would be. It's hard science.
If someone disagrees with anything I have ever said I would love to discuss it, but you have to actually put forth a specific alternative solution. It has to be two sided. If someone says "you are wrong", but not why, I can't do much with that. This kind of thing helps me as generally the problem is simply I didn't explain the concept in a way that person can understand. That "5 myths" article was meant to be inflammatory, to start discussion. Most of the traditional type advice is not strictly wrong, it typically is just sort of handwavy. Those myths, while technically incorrect, are the type of general advice you might give a new driver. The type of analysis I get into is primarily for people who have gotten down to that last second or so and can't figure out where that last little bit of time is. When general advice is not good enough anymore and you need to go further.
If anyone wants to discuss any of the concepts I write about, I'd suggest starting with something small and simple. One singular concept you disagree with or don't understand. I'd be happy to have the discussion in private as well so anyone can't message me if they prefer.
#3067
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Okay, serious question for the coaches here.
First, a brief introduction of myself. Hi - I'm rootwyrm (or RootWyrm but not Rootwyrm.) I used to do a bit of competitive driving years back and now I'm ten years out of practice. I wasn't great, but I wasn't terrible. Stuff I ran included your typical autox and track day, but also rally (special stage and TSD.) Everything I've run? FWD. (A few invites to drive fun RWDs too.) I'm here because I'm looking to get back into it with a Porsche - most likely a C4GTS. And enrolling in an actual 3 day class again. A lot of the classroom is going to be refresher for me, and I definitely need it, but it's not my primary area of concern.
Going back, I know my worst weak points. Some are easy habits to fix when I remember them. Others are more deep-seated. I'm bad at heel-toe. Like, really bad. I learned left foot braking first, and still use it in automatics, so, it's always been a major struggle for me. Previous instructors have complimented me on my ability to feel the limits of the car quite well, but of course, that stops when it involves the pedal work. I'm weak there and I know it. And I'll also be driving a totally different platform.
What approach would you recommend I take here? Because pedalwork has historically been my worst, I want to have my instructor/coach helping with that first and foremost. But I'm rusty and on a new platform. But bad pedalwork is confidence-destroying for me. Missing a shift, my heart turns into a drum and beat banger. How should I communicate to my instructor/coach that my greatest concern is improving my confidence-crushing pedal work? As I'm still saddled with a 2 pedal daily driver for the moment, is there anything you can recommend I do here to better prepare myself before class? My ultimate goal here is to be able to manage consistent 1:55-2:00 minute range at Mid-Ohio.
First, a brief introduction of myself. Hi - I'm rootwyrm (or RootWyrm but not Rootwyrm.) I used to do a bit of competitive driving years back and now I'm ten years out of practice. I wasn't great, but I wasn't terrible. Stuff I ran included your typical autox and track day, but also rally (special stage and TSD.) Everything I've run? FWD. (A few invites to drive fun RWDs too.) I'm here because I'm looking to get back into it with a Porsche - most likely a C4GTS. And enrolling in an actual 3 day class again. A lot of the classroom is going to be refresher for me, and I definitely need it, but it's not my primary area of concern.
Going back, I know my worst weak points. Some are easy habits to fix when I remember them. Others are more deep-seated. I'm bad at heel-toe. Like, really bad. I learned left foot braking first, and still use it in automatics, so, it's always been a major struggle for me. Previous instructors have complimented me on my ability to feel the limits of the car quite well, but of course, that stops when it involves the pedal work. I'm weak there and I know it. And I'll also be driving a totally different platform.
What approach would you recommend I take here? Because pedalwork has historically been my worst, I want to have my instructor/coach helping with that first and foremost. But I'm rusty and on a new platform. But bad pedalwork is confidence-destroying for me. Missing a shift, my heart turns into a drum and beat banger. How should I communicate to my instructor/coach that my greatest concern is improving my confidence-crushing pedal work? As I'm still saddled with a 2 pedal daily driver for the moment, is there anything you can recommend I do here to better prepare myself before class? My ultimate goal here is to be able to manage consistent 1:55-2:00 minute range at Mid-Ohio.
#3068
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Okay, serious question for the coaches here.
First, a brief introduction of myself. Hi - I'm rootwyrm (or RootWyrm but not Rootwyrm.) I used to do a bit of competitive driving years back and now I'm ten years out of practice. I wasn't great, but I wasn't terrible. Stuff I ran included your typical autox and track day, but also rally (special stage and TSD.) Everything I've run? FWD. (A few invites to drive fun RWDs too.) I'm here because I'm looking to get back into it with a Porsche - most likely a C4GTS. And enrolling in an actual 3 day class again. A lot of the classroom is going to be refresher for me, and I definitely need it, but it's not my primary area of concern.
Going back, I know my worst weak points. Some are easy habits to fix when I remember them. Others are more deep-seated. I'm bad at heel-toe. Like, really bad. I learned left foot braking first, and still use it in automatics, so, it's always been a major struggle for me. Previous instructors have complimented me on my ability to feel the limits of the car quite well, but of course, that stops when it involves the pedal work. I'm weak there and I know it. And I'll also be driving a totally different platform.
What approach would you recommend I take here? Because pedalwork has historically been my worst, I want to have my instructor/coach helping with that first and foremost. But I'm rusty and on a new platform. But bad pedalwork is confidence-destroying for me. Missing a shift, my heart turns into a drum and beat banger. How should I communicate to my instructor/coach that my greatest concern is improving my confidence-crushing pedal work? As I'm still saddled with a 2 pedal daily driver for the moment, is there anything you can recommend I do here to better prepare myself before class? My ultimate goal here is to be able to manage consistent 1:55-2:00 minute range at Mid-Ohio.
First, a brief introduction of myself. Hi - I'm rootwyrm (or RootWyrm but not Rootwyrm.) I used to do a bit of competitive driving years back and now I'm ten years out of practice. I wasn't great, but I wasn't terrible. Stuff I ran included your typical autox and track day, but also rally (special stage and TSD.) Everything I've run? FWD. (A few invites to drive fun RWDs too.) I'm here because I'm looking to get back into it with a Porsche - most likely a C4GTS. And enrolling in an actual 3 day class again. A lot of the classroom is going to be refresher for me, and I definitely need it, but it's not my primary area of concern.
Going back, I know my worst weak points. Some are easy habits to fix when I remember them. Others are more deep-seated. I'm bad at heel-toe. Like, really bad. I learned left foot braking first, and still use it in automatics, so, it's always been a major struggle for me. Previous instructors have complimented me on my ability to feel the limits of the car quite well, but of course, that stops when it involves the pedal work. I'm weak there and I know it. And I'll also be driving a totally different platform.
What approach would you recommend I take here? Because pedalwork has historically been my worst, I want to have my instructor/coach helping with that first and foremost. But I'm rusty and on a new platform. But bad pedalwork is confidence-destroying for me. Missing a shift, my heart turns into a drum and beat banger. How should I communicate to my instructor/coach that my greatest concern is improving my confidence-crushing pedal work? As I'm still saddled with a 2 pedal daily driver for the moment, is there anything you can recommend I do here to better prepare myself before class? My ultimate goal here is to be able to manage consistent 1:55-2:00 minute range at Mid-Ohio.
#3069
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Okay, serious question for the coaches here.
What approach would you recommend I take here?
Because pedalwork has historically been my worst, I want to have my instructor/coach helping with that first and foremost.
How should I communicate to my instructor/coach that my greatest concern is improving my confidence-crushing pedal work?
What approach would you recommend I take here?
Because pedalwork has historically been my worst, I want to have my instructor/coach helping with that first and foremost.
How should I communicate to my instructor/coach that my greatest concern is improving my confidence-crushing pedal work?
Your identification of the area for greatest potential for improvement is key. Conveying this to your coach/instructor is important, but it’s only one of many different things you’re going to want to work on.
Take a deep breath. Clear your mind. Push that anxiety out of your mind, either by focusing on what you CAN do well and enjoying simple triumphs or again, breaking the operation down into smaller parts.
On mastering heel and toe, or even being competent about it, break it down into smaller parts. The blip, the timing, the shift lever timing and movement, THEN put all those pieces together.
Ultimately, you will want to prioritize braking (slowing) over the heel and toe choreography, but for now, just develop and ingrain “the order of things” you want to do in the execution of the downshift. Start with one downshift, not the end of the back straight, where many are needed.
While it would be best to practice on the street, it is what it is. Just don’t obsess about “losing” the gear. Pick yourself up and focus FORWARD!
Good luck. You are not alone and many people have, with the help of someone who can help break down into individual components and actions, been able to get at least competent, if not downright stylish, in their heel and toe (or in my case, ball-of-the-foot/side of my shoe) downshifts! Let us know how it goes!
#3070
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Okay, serious question for the coaches here.
First, a brief introduction of myself. Hi - I'm rootwyrm (or RootWyrm but not Rootwyrm.) I used to do a bit of competitive driving years back and now I'm ten years out of practice. I wasn't great, but I wasn't terrible. Stuff I ran included your typical autox and track day, but also rally (special stage and TSD.) Everything I've run? FWD. (A few invites to drive fun RWDs too.) I'm here because I'm looking to get back into it with a Porsche - most likely a C4GTS. And enrolling in an actual 3 day class again. A lot of the classroom is going to be refresher for me, and I definitely need it, but it's not my primary area of concern.
Going back, I know my worst weak points. Some are easy habits to fix when I remember them. Others are more deep-seated. I'm bad at heel-toe. Like, really bad. I learned left foot braking first, and still use it in automatics, so, it's always been a major struggle for me. Previous instructors have complimented me on my ability to feel the limits of the car quite well, but of course, that stops when it involves the pedal work. I'm weak there and I know it. And I'll also be driving a totally different platform.
What approach would you recommend I take here? Because pedalwork has historically been my worst, I want to have my instructor/coach helping with that first and foremost. But I'm rusty and on a new platform. But bad pedalwork is confidence-destroying for me. Missing a shift, my heart turns into a drum and beat banger. How should I communicate to my instructor/coach that my greatest concern is improving my confidence-crushing pedal work? As I'm still saddled with a 2 pedal daily driver for the moment, is there anything you can recommend I do here to better prepare myself before class? My ultimate goal here is to be able to manage consistent 1:55-2:00 minute range at Mid-Ohio.
First, a brief introduction of myself. Hi - I'm rootwyrm (or RootWyrm but not Rootwyrm.) I used to do a bit of competitive driving years back and now I'm ten years out of practice. I wasn't great, but I wasn't terrible. Stuff I ran included your typical autox and track day, but also rally (special stage and TSD.) Everything I've run? FWD. (A few invites to drive fun RWDs too.) I'm here because I'm looking to get back into it with a Porsche - most likely a C4GTS. And enrolling in an actual 3 day class again. A lot of the classroom is going to be refresher for me, and I definitely need it, but it's not my primary area of concern.
Going back, I know my worst weak points. Some are easy habits to fix when I remember them. Others are more deep-seated. I'm bad at heel-toe. Like, really bad. I learned left foot braking first, and still use it in automatics, so, it's always been a major struggle for me. Previous instructors have complimented me on my ability to feel the limits of the car quite well, but of course, that stops when it involves the pedal work. I'm weak there and I know it. And I'll also be driving a totally different platform.
What approach would you recommend I take here? Because pedalwork has historically been my worst, I want to have my instructor/coach helping with that first and foremost. But I'm rusty and on a new platform. But bad pedalwork is confidence-destroying for me. Missing a shift, my heart turns into a drum and beat banger. How should I communicate to my instructor/coach that my greatest concern is improving my confidence-crushing pedal work? As I'm still saddled with a 2 pedal daily driver for the moment, is there anything you can recommend I do here to better prepare myself before class? My ultimate goal here is to be able to manage consistent 1:55-2:00 minute range at Mid-Ohio.
I am not familiar with the C4GTS pedal arrangement, and that makes a big difference on how easily you’re going to be able to practice this and figure it out. On my 996.2 C2, the pedals are staggered perfectly for heel/toeing - a fact I was not aware of until I was at the track and needed to brake and downshift at the end of a fast straight. In a street environment I never found myself needing to brake that hard, so never got enough pedal travel to get my foot down far enough to be able to roll over to the accelerator to make the blip. It’s not really a safe thing to do in a street environment, certainly not while you’re trying to figure it out (imho).
You might find you could start to learn to feel it a bit while you’re parked in the garage/driveway/parking lot. With the engine running try pushing your brake down as far as it will go, and while there roll your foot toward the accelerator and see if you can feel it at all with the side of your foot. Then see if you can actuate it. This may tell you whether or not your pedal arrangement is going to support heel/toeing. You do have to mash down pretty hard on the brake (at least in my 996 that’s the case), or you won’t get the amount of travel needed.
If your shoes are preventing you from feeling the pressure of the accelerator on the side of your foot, take off the right one and try doing this in your socks and see if that helps. As I said earlier, for me that was the key that unlocked the whole heel/toe mystery. Like riding a bike, once you learn it you don’t forget it.
Or, as someone posted above, get a PDK. Honestly. Depending on what kind of power you’re used to having on the track, you may find that you have your hands full managing a C4GTS in a track environment. Things happen a lot faster with 350-400hp (or whatever those have), than they do with lower-powered cars. That’s another thing I found with my 996 - it’s just more power than I’m used to managing with a 6-speed. If I did it over again I’d get one with a PDK.
Anyway, good luck getting back to the track! It’s a lifelong addiction - and a fun one, for sure.
#3071
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Wow, lots of great answers here, thanks everyone! ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I actually thought about it. But there's a very good reason I said no PDK - 95% of my experience is manual or dogbox. PDK is adding too many changes, not subtracting. I also very much do not like working on dual clutch systems.
Plus, I kinda stumbled into a 997.2 C4 GTS manual after missing out on a C2 GTS manual. (No, not the Miami Basket Case at PP.)
Thanks! All it took was one hotlap as a passenger in a Mini JCW to show me exactly how stupid I was to not be making time, and the stars finally aligned. And who knows. Maybe I'll be able to bring the original instigators to an event sometime. (And do not underestimate the blue one.)
I'm definitely handicapping the hell out of myself though. All new surface, all new platform, and too many years away. I'm honestly wondering if 2'10" for club config is too conservative, since that's close to 25 seconds off J class pace. But there's a world of difference between a $15k engine wrapped in a $5k body and a $15k engine wrapped in a $50k body.
However, that's... actually something I probably should've thought of. I actually am in a location where I do have roads I can safely practice on. Extremely low traffic, good pavement, 50-55MPH speed limits. I can safely drop from 60 to 20.
Hahaha, oh god, non-synchro boxes are the bane of my existence. Those and self-adjusting hydraulic clutches. (I'll do it myself, thankyouverymuch.) Unfortunately, no lakes to get thrown into that I'm aware of, at least not these days.
Couldn't find a 996.2 to drive so can't compare there. But you actually just clued me in to EXACTLY why I suck at it. Like, dead on. The car I'm most familiar on, I've always avoided braking as much as possible. Only time I would brake hard was emergency situations, otherwise it was feather touch. Engine brake and wheel work, and maybe a tiny dab of brake. And where I had to go full braking, I didn't need to heel-toe because I wanted to be out of the boost. Otherwise it's nothing but tire smoke and new gravel carpets.
Because I'm an idiot, it never once occurred to me that brake pedal travel was an important part of it. Not once. I'm gonna go die of embarrassment now.
And that right there is why I was worried... when I drove the 997.2 GTS, I was sitting there going "guess I need to work on my achilles to get this 70 degree bend in my ankle." Because I was way too gentle with the brake. GAH! And of course, sure enough, when I really stomp on it in what I have now? Yep... all of a sudden it's an easy roll.
You, sir, just made some poor instructor's life a WHOLE lot easier!
408HP for the one I'm chasing, with no modifications, so well within my comfort margin. Didn't have any concerns pushing the RWD pretty hard and carrying a conversation when I drove it, even though I was having trouble seating the shifter, which told me it's a massively reduced workload. If driving a GT3 is like riding a cheetah? What I've learned on is like trying to operate a rabid wolverine. There is no point where it does not require 100% of your attention, because there is no point where it is not actively trying to murder you. And that's how they drive on the highway!
Man. That takes SUCH a load of my mind. Now I can get back to stressing about the PPI.
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Plus, I kinda stumbled into a 997.2 C4 GTS manual after missing out on a C2 GTS manual. (No, not the Miami Basket Case at PP.)
First off, congrats for stepping back in. You’re going to enjoy it and your goal is certainly achievable.
Your identification of the area for greatest potential for improvement is key. Conveying this to your coach/instructor is important, but it’s only one of many different things you’re going to want to work on.
Take a deep breath. Clear your mind. Push that anxiety out of your mind, either by focusing on what you CAN do well and enjoying simple triumphs or again, breaking the operation down into smaller parts.
On mastering heel and toe, or even being competent about it, break it down into smaller parts. The blip, the timing, the shift lever timing and movement, THEN put all those pieces together.
Ultimately, you will want to prioritize braking (slowing) over the heel and toe choreography, but for now, just develop and ingrain “the order of things” you want to do in the execution of the downshift. Start with one downshift, not the end of the back straight, where many are needed.
While it would be best to practice on the street, it is what it is. Just don’t obsess about “losing” the gear. Pick yourself up and focus FORWARD!
Good luck. You are not alone and many people have, with the help of someone who can help break down into individual components and actions, been able to get at least competent, if not downright stylish, in their heel and toe (or in my case, ball-of-the-foot/side of my shoe) downshifts! Let us know how it goes!
Your identification of the area for greatest potential for improvement is key. Conveying this to your coach/instructor is important, but it’s only one of many different things you’re going to want to work on.
Take a deep breath. Clear your mind. Push that anxiety out of your mind, either by focusing on what you CAN do well and enjoying simple triumphs or again, breaking the operation down into smaller parts.
On mastering heel and toe, or even being competent about it, break it down into smaller parts. The blip, the timing, the shift lever timing and movement, THEN put all those pieces together.
Ultimately, you will want to prioritize braking (slowing) over the heel and toe choreography, but for now, just develop and ingrain “the order of things” you want to do in the execution of the downshift. Start with one downshift, not the end of the back straight, where many are needed.
While it would be best to practice on the street, it is what it is. Just don’t obsess about “losing” the gear. Pick yourself up and focus FORWARD!
Good luck. You are not alone and many people have, with the help of someone who can help break down into individual components and actions, been able to get at least competent, if not downright stylish, in their heel and toe (or in my case, ball-of-the-foot/side of my shoe) downshifts! Let us know how it goes!
I'm definitely handicapping the hell out of myself though. All new surface, all new platform, and too many years away. I'm honestly wondering if 2'10" for club config is too conservative, since that's close to 25 seconds off J class pace. But there's a world of difference between a $15k engine wrapped in a $5k body and a $15k engine wrapped in a $50k body.
However, that's... actually something I probably should've thought of. I actually am in a location where I do have roads I can safely practice on. Extremely low traffic, good pavement, 50-55MPH speed limits. I can safely drop from 60 to 20.
I first learned how to heel/toe during a Formula Ford driving school - those cars had 4 speed syncro boxes and couldn’t be downshifted without heel/toeing. I was having trouble feeling the accelerator pedal with the side of my foot through my shoe, so the instructor suggested trying a few laps in my socks. Worked like a charm. Made for some exciting Turn 1 action until I finally figured it out. Was a good way to learn - like throwing a kid into a lake and telling ‘em to learn how to swim. You figure it out real quick. Or you don’t.
I am not familiar with the C4GTS pedal arrangement, and that makes a big difference on how easily you’re going to be able to practice this and figure it out. On my 996.2 C2, the pedals are staggered perfectly for heel/toeing - a fact I was not aware of until I was at the track and needed to brake and downshift at the end of a fast straight. In a street environment I never found myself needing to brake that hard, so never got enough pedal travel to get my foot down far enough to be able to roll over to the accelerator to make the blip. It’s not really a safe thing to do in a street environment, certainly not while you’re trying to figure it out (imho).
I am not familiar with the C4GTS pedal arrangement, and that makes a big difference on how easily you’re going to be able to practice this and figure it out. On my 996.2 C2, the pedals are staggered perfectly for heel/toeing - a fact I was not aware of until I was at the track and needed to brake and downshift at the end of a fast straight. In a street environment I never found myself needing to brake that hard, so never got enough pedal travel to get my foot down far enough to be able to roll over to the accelerator to make the blip. It’s not really a safe thing to do in a street environment, certainly not while you’re trying to figure it out (imho).
Hahaha, oh god, non-synchro boxes are the bane of my existence. Those and self-adjusting hydraulic clutches. (I'll do it myself, thankyouverymuch.) Unfortunately, no lakes to get thrown into that I'm aware of, at least not these days.
Couldn't find a 996.2 to drive so can't compare there. But you actually just clued me in to EXACTLY why I suck at it. Like, dead on. The car I'm most familiar on, I've always avoided braking as much as possible. Only time I would brake hard was emergency situations, otherwise it was feather touch. Engine brake and wheel work, and maybe a tiny dab of brake. And where I had to go full braking, I didn't need to heel-toe because I wanted to be out of the boost. Otherwise it's nothing but tire smoke and new gravel carpets.
Because I'm an idiot, it never once occurred to me that brake pedal travel was an important part of it. Not once. I'm gonna go die of embarrassment now.
You might find you could start to learn to feel it a bit while you’re parked in the garage/driveway/parking lot. With the engine running try pushing your brake down as far as it will go, and while there roll your foot toward the accelerator and see if you can feel it at all with the side of your foot. Then see if you can actuate it. This may tell you whether or not your pedal arrangement is going to support heel/toeing. You do have to mash down pretty hard on the brake (at least in my 996 that’s the case), or you won’t get the amount of travel needed.
You, sir, just made some poor instructor's life a WHOLE lot easier!
Or, as someone posted above, get a PDK. Honestly. Depending on what kind of power you’re used to having on the track, you may find that you have your hands full managing a C4GTS in a track environment. Things happen a lot faster with 350-400hp (or whatever those have), than they do with lower-powered cars. That’s another thing I found with my 996 - it’s just more power than I’m used to managing with a 6-speed. If I did it over again I’d get one with a PDK.
Anyway, good luck getting back to the track! It’s a lifelong addiction - and a fun one, for sure.
Anyway, good luck getting back to the track! It’s a lifelong addiction - and a fun one, for sure.
Man. That takes SUCH a load of my mind. Now I can get back to stressing about the PPI.
#3073
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I'm sorting and getting used to a 996 c2 trackday car. One of my problem areas is my shift point onto the front straight (Portland Int Raceway). I am having to make a 2-3 shift at corner exit which upsets the car. While it doesn't actually spin, the rear end will wiggle when I clutch for the up-shift. When I try coming off the corner in 3rd, it is dead slow.
Can this corner be "tuned" by shock adjustment? (JRZ doubles) Or, would a limited slip differential do anything in this situation (power off over-steer? Or, driver technique? (my current technique is the straighten the wheel/turn towards the wall briefly during the shift... which is a little unsettling on an "off lap", when you go a bit wide.
Can this corner be "tuned" by shock adjustment? (JRZ doubles) Or, would a limited slip differential do anything in this situation (power off over-steer? Or, driver technique? (my current technique is the straighten the wheel/turn towards the wall briefly during the shift... which is a little unsettling on an "off lap", when you go a bit wide.
Last edited by gtred; 07-09-2018 at 12:44 PM.