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Kevin, he is not trail braking at this point and he is slowing too much. I gathered from his question - "How do you recommend not over slowing at corner entry?" - that he is hunting for a safe but quicker speed at which to begin the corner. I just think it is much easier to isolate and concentrate on just 1 variable - here speed - than while braking, etc. Once he is comfortable w/ a faster entry he can start to dial in other techniques. And he will probably end up w/ an even faster entry, as you recognized.
I'd agree with this but it is a good way to build confidence. I'd start doing this, for example, on a cool down lap, staying off the brakes. Make mental notes you can use the next session
This might sound nuts but I’ve always wanted to do a no brakes/race or session. See how fast you can go and the marshals eliminate any brake light violations. Last car in wins!
Re Cayman, if you want to know how fast you can turn in, D.E.s give you that opportunity. Instead of barreling into the corner, braking, downshifting, turning, etc. , all the while trying to gauge your speed, back off on the preceding straight and start by just holding (cruise?) what your normal corner speed is down to the apex. No problem? Next lap speed up a few mph. Repeat until you don't think you can go any faster w/o losing it. Probably a lot faster than you thought. Then adjust your brake point accordingly.
Seems pretty simple... I'll give this a try when not in traffic. The other variable would be once I feel comfortable at a speed preventing my foot from holding the brake too long. Its the sense of deceleration too...
I don't want to start an argument in here, but can one of the PC's weigh in on this?
If you are just coasting then your corner entry is going to be slower then if you are mildly trail braking, so this isn't that accurate?
Agreed, especially considering that the rate of change is an integral part of managing entry speed. This is a dynamic situation, not a static one. I would focus on doing the same thing as you ULTIMATELY want to do, not practice something that has no end game...
Also, the handling dynamics of a coasting car (and it is coasting, losing speed as the wheel is turned and tire scrub saps speed) are very different from a car with it's weight on the nose and an active, driver-directed weight distribution.
Originally Posted by bldn10
Kevin, he is not trail braking at this point and he is slowing too much. I gathered from his question - "How do you recommend not over slowing at corner entry?" - that he is hunting for a safe but quicker speed at which to begin the corner. I just think it is much easier to isolate and concentrate on just 1 variable - here speed - than while braking, etc. Once he is comfortable w/ a faster entry he can start to dial in other techniques. And he will probably end up w/ an even faster entry, as you recognized.
One of the exercises other pro coaches and I like to encourage is your exercise for FASTER, more OPEN corners. The simplification that you strive for often works in that case, but becomes difficult, if not impossible to achieve in the slower corners that most require "turning on the nose," best achieved through trail-braking or "brake-turning."
I prefer to focus on ONE aspect of corner entry when incrementally raising entry speeds. That is, as Ross puts it, the "end-of-braking" (EoB) release, pulling your toes back, allowing your foot to follow, off that brake pedal at slightly higher speeds.
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
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This is also a time to make sure that you have great braking technique. Make sure you have a fast, high build of brake pressure and then a smooth, consistent release. If you don't have the braking technique down, it makes the turn in and corner entry much harder. The advanced materials are just being better at the basics!
This is also a time to make sure that you have great braking technique. Make sure you have a fast, high build of brake pressure and then a smooth, consistent release.
Someone want to tell me how to get around oak tree. Tried about 47 different things and they all seemed to suck in different ways.
My opinion is to keep it simple and think about it backwards, starting at track out. You want to be wheels straight there and WOT. To do that, focus on setting up for it in 11 by making sure you are parallel to the 11 track out, at worst. If you are still pointed drivers left there, it's gonna be tough on your car when you really have to crank in more steering to make the 12 apex...and it's not gonna allow you to go WOT nearly soon enough. I like displacing the 11 apex a bit, others may not. But the attitude of the car at 11 track out is way more important.
My opinion is to keep it simple and think about it backwards, starting at track out. You want to be wheels straight there and WOT.
While my advice is different than VR, the above premise is key.
First, look at Oak Treeless as TWO radii. One is T11, one is T12, but they are connected and BOTH must be aced to make Oak Tree work. The goal is to go through T11 as quick as it takes to stop and turn (and GO) for Oak Tree.
My detailed track notes devote four pages, single spaced, to these two turns. This is the area where most people can pick up the most time in the shortest distance (the others are T4a-T4b and T16a/T16b).
A fun study, and a corner that has won me a lot of races...
I'm looking forward to all three days at NNJR-PCA and at Carolinas Region-PCA this year with private clients.
First, look at Oak Treeless as TWO radii. One is T11, one is T12, but they are connected and BOTH must be aced to make Oak Tree work. T
Agreed, it's a double apex with a decreasing radius. Here is an illustration that might help.
As with any double apex you would treat the initial entry (black portion) as a standard corner entry and the final exit (white portion) as a standard corner exit, but your goal during middle portion (grey) is to have a steady change in speed.
Also remember a double apex reverses your apexes. If you need a later 2nd apex to optimize your exit, drive an earlier 1st apex and vice versa.
Last edited by AdamBrouillard; 10-27-2017 at 08:19 AM.
Also remember a double apex reverses your apexes. If you need a later 2nd apex to optimize your exit, drive an earlier 1st apex and vice versa.
Wonderful advice; so simple, and easy to execute. While execution might be instinctive, these few words paint a concrete picture (give the actual recipe).
T2 @ Mosport is exactly that. 2nd apex is so important (as are others) to get a good run to T3, to achieve speed without drama.
Guide a student through the first apex and the rest of the turn just falls into place.
Agreed, it's a double apex with a decreasing radius. Here is an illustration that might help.
As with any double apex you would treat the initial entry (black portion) as a standard corner entry and the final exit (white portion) as a standard corner exit, but your goal during middle portion (grey) is to have a steady change in speed.
Also remember a double apex reverses your apexes. If you need a later 2nd apex to optimize your exit, drive an earlier 1st apex and vice versa.
Great post! Gets right to the point, is nice and concise, and explains all the important details.
Agreed, it's a double apex with a decreasing radius. Here is an illustration that might help.
As with any double apex you would treat the initial entry (black portion) as a standard corner entry and the final exit (white portion) as a standard corner exit, but your goal during middle portion (grey) is to have a steady change in speed.
Also remember a double apex reverses your apexes. If you need a later 2nd apex to optimize your exit, drive an earlier 1st apex and vice versa.
Originally Posted by FFaust
Wonderful advice; so simple, and easy to execute. While execution might be instinctive, these few words paint a concrete picture (give the actual recipe).
T2 @ Mosport is exactly that. 2nd apex is so important (as are others) to get a good run to T3, to achieve speed without drama.
Guide a student through the first apex and the rest of the turn just falls into place.
Agreed!
In my momentum car I was trying to carry as much speed as possible through the final turn which required an earlier apex for 12 but using the exit curbing made it so slidey that it was hard to tell if I was getting power down or not.
My lap timer basically did this through the section from entry to 11 to the South pits:
Oh, that was good! But this part sucks. This part is ok. Oh, not now. Aaaaand that generally sucked.
Or.
Oh that sucked. But this part is good! Oh, but not now. Now you suck worse. Aaaaand that generally sucked.
10-23-2017, 09:07 PM
