Thundermoose

good insight. I wasn't paying enough attention to his feet once he lost traction.

Veloce Raptor

Yep I manually down shift PDK cars on track for this reason

onefastviking

No doubt of the lift playing a part of it, but there could be another issue in play here. You do have a LSD correct ? What type is it ? When was it rebuilt last ? Have you checked it ?
Let me know, I'm not on here quite as much anymore so feel free to email me if any questions or thoughts.

Onefastviking

surlynkid

Nothing worse than riding right seat and knowing everything looks good for line and track out only to have the trans kick down a gear automatically and send you on a path that will end up in the grass without intervention.

TXE36

You know, you are the second person to bring up the diff. Honestly, that morning I did change the diff oil as well as the tranny fluid. The diff oil I used was Royal Purple 75W-140 with the friction modifier. The oil that came out of the diff looked good and was very dark green in color - in fact it looked so good I wondered if I really needed to change it but it had been in there a while. I did not do the figure eights to "distribute" the fluid. While the car was in the air I did spin the left side wheel and the right side wheel spun in the same direction. Nothing felt weird about the diff in the paddock or anywhere else.

I did get back on the horse and run another session with no drama.

I generally don't believe in coincidences and if it was the diff I don't think there is a way to know for sure. The oil I used in it is oil I've used in my other M3 for years with no issue. What I can say, is this incident has a lot in common with a few of my other offs in that my car feel isn't where it should be.

As far as I know the only thing unique about the diff in the race car is it has a ratio that is fairly rare and highly sought after (IOW expensive). The limited slip part is BMW stock.

-Mike

Veloce Raptor

Mike, contact Dan at Diffs Online about care and feeding of that diff. I did not use that fluid. Be very careful what you use ...

dan212

Two things to consider. Why the spin? And what to do next?

SPIN
1A) I think it would be interesting to compare your line in this lap against another lap when you don't have a car in front of you. I have a feeling you were a bit early on this lap/that turn because your eyes were on the car in front of you. Don't have a wide enough camera angle to see left/right curbs but I suspect so. VISION.

1B) Compare your line coming out of this turn to that of the 911. You have the wheel cranked over pretty hard (not going to track out this way) as you added power, while it looks like he was unwinding and tracking out as he got on power. This just judging the angle of your wheel and where that would theoretically send the car as you got on power.

I think when you compare this lap to another, you may find that were looking at him while he was coming out of the turn and you were still going in. Compare to another lap and then judge your line and inputs. You may find that vision had a part in the spin.

WHAT NEXT?
2A) Your correction is sensible, but bopping the throttle like that will pretty much guarantee that you will keep the rear end loose when you really want it to hook up.

2B) That extra rev as you got on the grass didn't help. You had your foot on the brake, but you accidentally caught the throttle a bit with your heel, so you lifted your foot up and over. You aren't the first person to do this.

3) Never stop fighting. Don't look at what you want to avoid. Look at where you want to go, because thats where the car will go too. That first glance right at :36 was probably "Oh crap, how far am I from the wall?". And then you stopped fighting and went for a ride.

The wall wasn't going anywhere. Keep your eyes on where you want to go and keep fighting. Make the spin your bitch.

4) Kudos for remaining calm and poised. And super kudos for having a camera on your feet. I should do that too!

And hey.. Don't beat yourself up. Seems like you have a very good attitude here. We have all been there. Me too.

I had a pro drive my car years ago. He spun my car on the "out lap" and while he was thinking in his head "F$CK!, F$CK$, F$CK! Not in my clients car!", he never stopped fighting, didn't hit anything and came to an elegant stop. He was mortified but I was laughing with him afterwards. He did all the right things once he knew he wasn't going to stop the spin. He made the spin his bitch.

TXE36

The extra rev was a mistake, but at least the clutch was in, so I don't think it did anything.

On your point 3, I noticed that too. In fact, at the end I think I actually steered backwards into the wall as it appears the front tires had bite. I think if I turned the wheel left near the end I would not have touched it. A bit of throttle may have helped there to push the car away from the wall NASCAR style.

Part of it was also a loss of situational awareness. I had a gaggle of cars behind me and I actually thought I was on the track proper - I did not want to shoot up in their way. I wasn't until I reviewed the video that I saw I was going down the pit road and quite far from the track proper.

"Calm and poised" - that's only because the microphone didn't pick up me reciting and repeating my sailor's dictionary .

-Mike

Veloce Raptor

*cough*

I'm the one who spun Dan's car. NJMP Lightning cold day cold slicks giving a point by after I exited the pits. Pure error on my part at probably 35-40 mph. And yes I was mortified but EVERYTHING DAN SAID IS TRUE. I never gave up or gave in. I kept driving the car to make sure it did not touch any Armco. It ended well despite embarrassment and our mutual laughter

Speeds5

Mike, to me it looks like once the tail started to get lose and you started countersteering, you kept blipping the throttle a couple of times. That kept the car unsettled. I think if you would have take some or most of the throttle out you would have caught it.

Manifold

I think that stabbing the throttle ensured the spin and prevented countersteering from being effective.

dctc42

Hi all, first time posting on this thread. Hope I'm following proper SOP.... Car is a 997.1 4S + X51

Went to Pacific Raceways (near Seattle) yesterday for my 3rd track day. Overall, happy I managed to take 8 seconds off my previous track day best. I did come off the track twice and wanted to get help from this group on how to avoid these two scenarios (plus a couple of more questions):

First time off the track: Shifting in the middle of a fast turn (turn 9 for reference). It's situation where I either have to shift early before the turn or hold the gear near or at redline through the turn (3rd gear). I had been trying to shift right before the turn and I could feel the car getting squirrely on me. On one of these occasions I couldn’t hold it and went straight into 1 of 2 paved runoff areas on the track (not damage except for my ego).I suspect I’m moving my hand on the wheel as I shift or the on/off/on throttle is upsetting balance. Maybe both? Should I be focusing on better shifting technic? Just short shift…?

Second time off the track: Breaks faded (Stock breaks. had them checked by my indie that morning during an oil change and everything was OK) per for a tight turn entering @ ~100 mph. I know I was over breaking most of the day and need to work on carrying more speed into a corner. I will get an instructor to work on this next time at the track. Having said this, I’d like to have more confidence on the breaks and would like to know if I should invest in new break fluid, pads, maybe break ducts?

Heal toe: Need to learn it. What’s the best way of going about this?

Thanks everyone!

TXE36

Shifting in the middle of the turn, unless you have a PDK, don't do it. Even with a PDK one may have to be careful. Without it, the lift from the clutch during the shift is not a good idea loaded up in the turn. You stated the answer, short shift or perhaps short shift sooner. You will also get the benefit of not worrying about the tach during the turn.

If your brakes actually faded, you should have less confidence in them not more. First you should establish if your brakes actually faded or could you have made a mistake. If they actually did fade, there are generally two mechanisms:

1. Brake pedel goes to the floor with little or no pressure. Pumping the pedal may restore braking action.
2. Hard pedal, but little or no braking effort.

Both of the above can be caused by brake system mechanical failures, but usually #1 is boiled brake fluid or possibly air in the brake lines. It does not fix itself. #2 is usually the pads, but it can also be from the caliper binding up.

Mechanical and hydraulic failures are possible. Sticking calipers that don't release all the way can cause the pads to overheat. Hydraulic issues can cause a soft or hard pedal with no braking effect. At a minimum, I would get the brake system checked by someone knowledgeable about braking systems. You should only have confidence in the brakes if the brakes are actually working well to slow the car.

If I may be so bold, worrying about entry speed into corners is not something that is all that helpful for one's 3rd track day. Generally this is something that is worked on by advanced students and on up. Focus on the basics: proper line, vision, proper hand position, vision, smoothness, vision, situational awareness, vision, feel the car. Did I say vision? Work on the basics and the rest will fall into place.

-Mike

himself

My $0.02 below. There are a ton of experts here that make my driving experience seem like I roll around in a shopping cart. They'll likely chime in as well.

One method: first learn to place your foot properly on the brake. For most 911's, putting the ball of your foot on the brake (with a little bit of your foot hanging off) is good. That needs to be ingrained in your rote memory, so practice that a lot. In the garage, when you are driving, etc. etc.

Once you have your foot/braking placement right, you can work on the hitting the gas pedal/rev-matching portion. This is essentially rolling your foot onto the throttle and pushing it down with the side of your foot. [some people like to rotate their foot and push on the gas with their heel vs their toes. I don't.]

Again, you can practice the body motion without driving. Once you are comfortable, with it, incorporate the clutch to get the timing down. [brake -> clutch/heel-toe/shift/clutch release] Your foot will likely not stay on the brake at this point, but in some instances, the heel-toe will coincide with the end of the braking zone.

You can practice all of this on the street (but do it safely!) Practice until you have a feel for the right amount of throttle to rev match properly. Note: the farther/harder you have the brake pushed down, the more throttle you'll get. You can use this to your advantage to rev-match.

The above info should be enough to get you past the beginner phase of heel-toe in a week or two.

This can't be said enough - like any other driving skill, it takes practice to learn, and more practice to master.

After you have the mechanics down, you can contemplate other aspects of the heel-toe (earlier vs later in the braking zone, heel-toe before/during/after trail braking, heel-toe and rowing/skipping gears, heel-toe at threshold vs during release, etc.)

-td (the above represents holiday inn express advice)

dctc42

Thanks TXE36!

On the breaks, I'm pretty sure I boiled the break fluid. After coming off track I drove slowly to the paddock area and had to pump the pedal to come to a stop. Breaks recovered after cooling off for about ~30 minutes.