ASK THE COACH
03-28-2017, 09:53 AM
#2806
Advanced
you can also see how steady the lateral G holds. Leh is pretty much at the limit all the times. a lot of it has to do with how the car is setup too. notice how when most of the he is working the steering wheel the throttle is either off, or he was modulating it. he is balancing the car with combination of steering and throttle.
03-28-2017, 10:01 PM
#2807
you can also see how steady the lateral G holds. Leh is pretty much at the limit all the times. a lot of it has to do with how the car is setup too. notice how when most of the he is working the steering wheel the throttle is either off, or he was modulating it. he is balancing the car with combination of steering and throttle.
Ideally, always putting in just as much as is needed, but no more - as Scott pointed out nicely earlier:
03-31-2017, 04:29 PM
#2808
Advanced
you used the keyword there - preemptively. truly talented drivers get accustomed to a car's handling characteristics and can predict the car's behavior based on the combination of his inputs (gas, brake, steering) and his experience from previous laps. you really can't teach this level of stuff it is mostly natural.
so sometimes guys like Leh seem to saw the wheel a lot but it is because he already knew how the car will probably react in that corner and he's neutralizing it before it happens, or neutralizing in real time. this will allow the maximum G circle possible.
so sometimes guys like Leh seem to saw the wheel a lot but it is because he already knew how the car will probably react in that corner and he's neutralizing it before it happens, or neutralizing in real time. this will allow the maximum G circle possible.
04-02-2017, 06:49 PM
#2809
Truly talented drivers get accustomed to a car's handling characteristics and can predict the car's behavior based on the combination of his inputs (gas, brake, steering) and his experience from previous laps. you really can't teach this level of stuff it is mostly natural.
so sometimes guys like Leh seem to saw the wheel a lot but it is because he already knew how the car will probably react in that corner and he's neutralizing it before it happens, or neutralizing in real time. this will allow the maximum G circle possible.
so sometimes guys like Leh seem to saw the wheel a lot but it is because he already knew how the car will probably react in that corner and he's neutralizing it before it happens, or neutralizing in real time. this will allow the maximum G circle possible.
Once sensitized, even just basic practice during normal public road driving helps too I reckon. OK, that's not normally near the grip limit, but we can still aim to smooth Gs over bumps, potholes, and pavement transitions. This may sound silly, but I am lucky enough to have a few curved bridges on the 50 and 60 MPH sections of my commute, with their large and recessed steel expansion joints cutting across the lanes in the bends. OK, legal requirements and common sense mean we are usually only doing maybe 4 or 5 tenths on the commute, but for many years I've been using those joints to help develop my timing and feel for the minimum input required to smooth out the G and yaw variations when crossing them under lateral G. At first I was over (pre-)correcting, but have now pared it down to a momentary relaxation of steering lock through about an inch of steering wheel travel. It's very brief, so the effect lasts for not much more than a car-length or two as we traverse those metal grooves, but that little input smooths out most of the lateral judder as we cross, and moves us less than half a foot or so across our lane.
Yes, I've done my share of autocross and even had a dab at rallycross, but practicing those simple touches on my commute every working day for years - at least a dozen times a day (plus at least as many simple mid-bend pavement transitions) - seems to be helping develop my sensitivity and timing for 'pre-corrections' generally. The ongoing challenge of course is to pare my inputs down to the optimum, but no further.
04-02-2017, 06:50 PM
#2810
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I'm hoping some of the coaches here will weigh in with their experience, but whatever sensitivity and talent is there can be developed IMO. Autocross and rallycross, for instance, pretty much force the learning of some prediction and preemptive correction skills, which can then be dialed down and finessed into someone's track driving too.
Once sensitized, even just basic practice during normal public road driving helps too I reckon. OK, that's not normally near the grip limit, but we can still aim to smooth Gs over bumps, potholes, and pavement transitions. This may sound silly, but I am lucky enough to have a few curved bridges on the 50 and 60 MPH sections of my commute, with their large and recessed steel expansion joints cutting across the lanes in the bends. OK, legal requirements and common sense mean we are usually only doing maybe 4 or 5 tenths on the commute, but for many years I've been using those joints to help develop my timing and feel for the minimum input required to smooth out the G and yaw variations when crossing them under lateral G. At first I was over (pre-)correcting, but have now pared it down to a momentary relaxation of steering lock through about an inch of steering wheel travel. It's very brief, so the effect lasts for not much more than a car-length or two as we traverse those metal grooves, but that little input smooths out most of the lateral judder as we cross, and moves us less than half a foot or so across our lane.
Yes, I've done my share of autocross and even had a dab at rallycross, but practicing those simple touches on my commute every working day for years - at least a dozen times a day (plus at least as many simple mid-bend pavement transitions) - seems to be helping develop my sensitivity and timing for 'pre-corrections' generally. The ongoing challenge of course is to pare my inputs down to the optimum, but no further.
Once sensitized, even just basic practice during normal public road driving helps too I reckon. OK, that's not normally near the grip limit, but we can still aim to smooth Gs over bumps, potholes, and pavement transitions. This may sound silly, but I am lucky enough to have a few curved bridges on the 50 and 60 MPH sections of my commute, with their large and recessed steel expansion joints cutting across the lanes in the bends. OK, legal requirements and common sense mean we are usually only doing maybe 4 or 5 tenths on the commute, but for many years I've been using those joints to help develop my timing and feel for the minimum input required to smooth out the G and yaw variations when crossing them under lateral G. At first I was over (pre-)correcting, but have now pared it down to a momentary relaxation of steering lock through about an inch of steering wheel travel. It's very brief, so the effect lasts for not much more than a car-length or two as we traverse those metal grooves, but that little input smooths out most of the lateral judder as we cross, and moves us less than half a foot or so across our lane.
Yes, I've done my share of autocross and even had a dab at rallycross, but practicing those simple touches on my commute every working day for years - at least a dozen times a day (plus at least as many simple mid-bend pavement transitions) - seems to be helping develop my sensitivity and timing for 'pre-corrections' generally. The ongoing challenge of course is to pare my inputs down to the optimum, but no further.
__________________
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www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
04-04-2017, 08:19 AM
#2811
Advanced
I'm hoping some of the coaches here will weigh in with their experience, but whatever sensitivity and talent is there can be developed IMO. Autocross and rallycross, for instance, pretty much force the learning of some prediction and preemptive correction skills, which can then be dialed down and finessed into someone's track driving too.
Once sensitized, even just basic practice during normal public road driving helps too I reckon. OK, that's not normally near the grip limit, but we can still aim to smooth Gs over bumps, potholes, and pavement transitions. This may sound silly, but I am lucky enough to have a few curved bridges on the 50 and 60 MPH sections of my commute, with their large and recessed steel expansion joints cutting across the lanes in the bends. OK, legal requirements and common sense mean we are usually only doing maybe 4 or 5 tenths on the commute, but for many years I've been using those joints to help develop my timing and feel for the minimum input required to smooth out the G and yaw variations when crossing them under lateral G. At first I was over (pre-)correcting, but have now pared it down to a momentary relaxation of steering lock through about an inch of steering wheel travel. It's very brief, so the effect lasts for not much more than a car-length or two as we traverse those metal grooves, but that little input smooths out most of the lateral judder as we cross, and moves us less than half a foot or so across our lane.
Yes, I've done my share of autocross and even had a dab at rallycross, but practicing those simple touches on my commute every working day for years - at least a dozen times a day (plus at least as many simple mid-bend pavement transitions) - seems to be helping develop my sensitivity and timing for 'pre-corrections' generally. The ongoing challenge of course is to pare my inputs down to the optimum, but no further.
Once sensitized, even just basic practice during normal public road driving helps too I reckon. OK, that's not normally near the grip limit, but we can still aim to smooth Gs over bumps, potholes, and pavement transitions. This may sound silly, but I am lucky enough to have a few curved bridges on the 50 and 60 MPH sections of my commute, with their large and recessed steel expansion joints cutting across the lanes in the bends. OK, legal requirements and common sense mean we are usually only doing maybe 4 or 5 tenths on the commute, but for many years I've been using those joints to help develop my timing and feel for the minimum input required to smooth out the G and yaw variations when crossing them under lateral G. At first I was over (pre-)correcting, but have now pared it down to a momentary relaxation of steering lock through about an inch of steering wheel travel. It's very brief, so the effect lasts for not much more than a car-length or two as we traverse those metal grooves, but that little input smooths out most of the lateral judder as we cross, and moves us less than half a foot or so across our lane.
Yes, I've done my share of autocross and even had a dab at rallycross, but practicing those simple touches on my commute every working day for years - at least a dozen times a day (plus at least as many simple mid-bend pavement transitions) - seems to be helping develop my sensitivity and timing for 'pre-corrections' generally. The ongoing challenge of course is to pare my inputs down to the optimum, but no further.
Out of hundreds of students I've work with since year 2000 only 1 truly stood out and it was a girl about 18 back in 2005. Her dad is really cool dude he raced in Baja (and still does). I helped him out at Street of Willows back then at some random event and he liked the way I instruct so he asked to to teach his daughter. She was a super fast learner and every thing I told her to do she adopted and executed perfectly pretty much immediately. That left me quite an impression... too bad she wasn't really serious with HPDE or racing though, she just had fun. Later on in her life she actually got into motocross and off road dirt biking. Perhaps not competitively but still pretty awesome as a hobby...
Autox is a fantastic way to train. Relatively expensive as well the only draw back is you pretty much spend an entire day for like ~10 minutes of seat time. But those 10 minutes are intense and you learn a lot. Usually I recommend doing those Evolution schools (I did level 1, 2, and back in late 1990's when the school first started). Highly valuable and during the school and special practice days you get way more seat time. I know plenty of autox hot shoe and that move on and become awesome at road racing. But never road racers that go and win autox (become national champs, anyone know of any?). Autox is very hard. People who never try it seriously tend to underestimate how hard it is to shave a 10th or two... and in USA we have some seriously good autox champs... super competitive.
I call seat time = calibration of our own internal G butt meter. :P
Rally is even better way to understand and feel the dynamics of your car. I haven't got a chance to try rally. Couple of my friends did the DirtFish rally school and loved it. Ice driving also seem fun as heck. Audi club has it in the winter times. It's called Winter Driving School or something.
Rain training is also awesome but one thing annoying is the mandatory both windows down requirement in USA HPDE (thanks to the stupid lawsuit happy American mentality). You can go like at low speeds and slide around and everything happens in slow motion. A great way to learn. I think that's a hugely underutilized training method. I wish more tracks would have water sprayer and have a section of track available for wet training.... that would be awesome.
04-04-2017, 09:16 AM
#2812
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Rain training is also awesome but one thing annoying is the mandatory both windows down requirement in USA HPDE (thanks to the stupid lawsuit happy American mentality). You can go like at low speeds and slide around and everything happens in slow motion. A great way to learn. I think that's a hugely underutilized training method. I wish more tracks would have water sprayer and have a section of track available for wet training.... that would be awesome.
04-10-2017, 08:49 AM
#2813
I have often wondered if European club racers are better than Americans because they spend so much time racing in the rain. Here in California you can get away with only knowing how to drive your car at 7/10 since it's unlikely you'll ever have a racing weekend where it's raining.
04-12-2017, 01:37 AM
#2814
Rennlist Member
If you want a little slick surface just get some old corvettes or retired NASCAR race cars and they will inevitably blow up and make the track nice and greasy for you.
04-12-2017, 08:06 AM
#2816
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Haha cough 944 Turbos cough ...
04-12-2017, 09:17 AM
#2817
It started with a small puff of smoke, and then escalated quickly. I could clearly see metal bits, oil, and coolant pouring out of the rear wheel wells. Cleanup took a long time.
-Mike
05-09-2017, 03:02 PM
#2818
Using berms
Just wanting to get others thoughts on riding up berms at the apexes of slow corners.
I was at Buttonwillow this weekend and was using the berms in all the slow corners. It really upsets the car, but in a slow corner it feels like the right thing to do because being able to cut the apex seems to be a big advantage in a slow corner. I avoided doing this in fast corners.
That said, I wish I had had the time to try laps without using them and see what the difference in lap times is.
I was at Buttonwillow this weekend and was using the berms in all the slow corners. It really upsets the car, but in a slow corner it feels like the right thing to do because being able to cut the apex seems to be a big advantage in a slow corner. I avoided doing this in fast corners.
That said, I wish I had had the time to try laps without using them and see what the difference in lap times is.
05-09-2017, 04:07 PM
#2819
Rather than fast vs slow corner try to consider what percentage wider you are making the corner by using the apex curb. In other words, how much can you increase your apex speed. For example, although slow, in a tight hairpin, using the curb won't increase apex speed. Turn 3 at Road Atlanta is pretty fast, but using the apex curb can potentially increase your speed a fair amount because it's a short and narrow corner.
In general. look to use the curb more where the track is narrower, and/or the corner is short (in time). Chicanes normally benefit from curb use for these reasons.
Whether or not using the curb is faster varies based on car and setup too so there isn't an easy rule of thumb. I generally just recommend to look at what the fast guys in a certain car are doing as they have most likely worked out which is faster. Also sometimes using the curb may give you almost the exact same time as not using it. You widened the track but lost some grip so it ends up a wash.
In general, I typically avoid curbs unless they are clearly faster. You may gain .05 by bouncing over the curb just right, but could lose a good bit more by bouncing over it just wrong.
In general. look to use the curb more where the track is narrower, and/or the corner is short (in time). Chicanes normally benefit from curb use for these reasons.
Whether or not using the curb is faster varies based on car and setup too so there isn't an easy rule of thumb. I generally just recommend to look at what the fast guys in a certain car are doing as they have most likely worked out which is faster. Also sometimes using the curb may give you almost the exact same time as not using it. You widened the track but lost some grip so it ends up a wash.
In general, I typically avoid curbs unless they are clearly faster. You may gain .05 by bouncing over the curb just right, but could lose a good bit more by bouncing over it just wrong.
Just wanting to get others thoughts on riding up berms at the apexes of slow corners.
I was at Buttonwillow this weekend and was using the berms in all the slow corners. It really upsets the car, but in a slow corner it feels like the right thing to do because being able to cut the apex seems to be a big advantage in a slow corner. I avoided doing this in fast corners.
That said, I wish I had had the time to try laps without using them and see what the difference in lap times is.
I was at Buttonwillow this weekend and was using the berms in all the slow corners. It really upsets the car, but in a slow corner it feels like the right thing to do because being able to cut the apex seems to be a big advantage in a slow corner. I avoided doing this in fast corners.
That said, I wish I had had the time to try laps without using them and see what the difference in lap times is.
05-09-2017, 04:19 PM
#2820
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I concur with Adam.
Also depends on the character of the curbs themselves. Some look inviting but can be ugly in certain cars. Examples are 1 and 9 at COTA
Also depends on the character of the curbs themselves. Some look inviting but can be ugly in certain cars. Examples are 1 and 9 at COTA