Gofishracing

I believe I see this style driven by Jim Pace.

Gofishracing

Spirals down to apex with proper angle with immediate progression to power. I wish to emulate that style .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuDHlAr5DGk

Manifold

There's always a finite amount of time and distance involved in transitioning from no steering angle (straight) to full steering angle, so corner entry always includes a spiral or a similar decreasing radius curve. Sometimes roads are designed with spirals and sometimes not, but road engineers understand that drivers must drive with spirals regardless, and are able to do so because lanes are substantially wider than vehicles.

What needs to be optimized is the specific geometry of that decreasing radius curve (and the rest of the corner), the speed variation along that trajectory, and the inputs to achieve all of that. In other words, you need to optimize the whole corner as a unit (or a connected series of corners as a unit), and the corner entry is only one component of that. If you spiral on the limit to an apex which is too early, you'll have to overslow past the apex in order to stay on track. If you spiral on the limit to an apex which is too late, you'll have unused track at the exit even if you're on the limit past the apex.

The three books explain all of this in detail, but as Matt noted, nearly everyone will need to read them multiple times to absorb everything.

By the way, though it won't (or shouldn't!) be on the limit, you can practice putting this theory into action when driving on the road.

zzyzx

Can anyone recommend a fully-qualified coach in Southern California? Thanks

Veloce Raptor

Do you want someone who actually lives there ? If so, James Sofronas or Craig Stanton.

zzyzx

Can you msg me their contact info? Thanks!

zzyzx

I've heard different opinions on how much time is lost under braking. Some people say it makes a big differences in lap times (a big difference being .5 second a lap); others say not.


I will usually brake a little early for a corner to give myself a safety margin if that corner is at the end of a long straight. However, I go to max braking immediately, and as soon as I know that I have a solid pedal and that the car is slowing at the rate I hoped it would, I reduce some of the braking that I'm do. I thus still carry a lot of speed through the braking zone.


I wonder how much time I'm losing doing this and if it's significant.

Veloce Raptor

Why would you think you're long time doing this?

IMO the best way to know for sure is to put a pro in your car and get data and video.

Matt Romanowski

For most drivers, there is significant time to be made up under braking. It's impossible to know how much without data though. Even a simple AiM Solo will help you figure this out very quickly.

No need for another driver. Data will tell how his technique is and how much time he's losing.

Matt Romanowski

Here's a great video from Roger at AiM on braking analysis

Beantown Kman

Speaking purely as a driver and not a coach, data is very revealing and is likely to answer your question. But having a professional coach in the car will also help and it might even speed the road to improvement faster than trying to buy a data system and figure out how to use it. A professional coach can feel much of what the data shows.

Most people think their braking skills are MUCH better than they really are. So if you are already aware of some deficiencies in your braking skills, chances are there is a meaningful amount of time that you are losing. It could easily be a half second, or more, in each corner where a large reduction in speed is required.

ProCoach

Well, between VR and Matt's video of Roger explaining brake analysis, you have it covered!

Braking IS the greatest variance between am and pro drivers, and even n00b am's to experienced am's.

The reason why is because we all drive to a level defined by our knowledge, experience and most importantly, "belief system." If we don't KNOW how quick the car will slow, we don't PUSH the brake pedal hard enough to stop (slow) the car as quickly as we should.

Pushing the gas is easy. The goal is always WOT, focusing on the unending and UNINTERRUPTED progression from "off" to "wide open throttle." Brakes are different...

You want to a) prioritize braking in a straight line such that you are close to the maximum decelerative capability of the car/tires/platform, without upsetting the platform and b) place the END of this maximal zone as close as you can to the point where you allow the car to rotate upon brake release and progress back to throttle.

I.e. as little "dwell" as possible at low speeds (before you need to be at low speed to make the car turn) and taking into account that simply turning the wheel continues (and actually increases, without brakes or enough throttle) the deceleration down to the point where the throttle overcomes the scrub of the car turning...

I am in both camps.

If you have NO idea what the car is capable of, having a pro drive it to set a "reference" lap is often the quickest way to assimilate where the greatest opportunity (or "lowest hanging fruit") lies. The issue I have with this is I can pick apart almost every pro I've worked with in THIS area, such that THE PRO is often as variable (over a far smaller range of measure) than the driver they're being compared to. That said, this is an area where experienced pros and talented am's excel over their less accomplished counterparts.

If you DO have an idea that the car can stop very quickly and can DO that, even for a moment, then the data CAN provide you with an organized, incremental and safe way to improve the level of your performance. There ARE benchmarks that EVERY driver MUST reach to KNOW they are "in the ballpark."

Be aware that the braking zone through corner entry can encompass examination of as many as FIVE different "stages" of slowing, all the way from initial application of the brake (speed, amplitude), through the braking zone (uniform deceleration, close to the maximum use of the tire), through the brake release and corner entry (the tightening spiral that folks talk about), the accuracy of the car's placement (down to a spot no larger than a fifty cent piece, lap after lap) and the attitude and heading of the car at ANY given point on the arc or intersection of the apex.

I have seen MANY drivers pick up, depending on the length of the braking zone, the speed they need to get rid of from vMax on the straight to what the care will accept (tracking accurately) and how LITTLE they equivocate or delay beginning the throttle pedal's journey to WOT, from .6 to 1.5 seconds through improvement in their braking technique. And these are experienced drivers.

Does this equate to the same decrease in lap times? Generally not, because this is just a singular, basic and fundamental skill execution, one of hundreds a driver makes each and every lap. However, the best track to improve is one that focuses on improving the quality of EACH of these skill executions, and braking is often done more than once, sometimes MANY times, per lap at some of these tracks.

The greatest difficulty is that AS braking efficiency improves (but using the SAME, OLD brake zone placement), the driver ends up "overslowing," and stopping SHORT of the corner entry. I define "overslowing" not as braking too HARD, but instead, braking too LONG.

Some of this is because drivers aren't paying enough attention to the WAY they release the brake pedal (and WHERE, in relation to the TRUE beginning of the corner) and focus instead on BLENDING the end of the "braking slowing" zone INTO the "steering slowing" state (typically where the most beneficial rotation occurs). To fix this, you HAVE to brake at a high, consistent, repeatable rate (and vary the duration to match the desired speed loss) and move that zone incrementally closer to the apex...

Beantown Kman is right on the money, and is intimately familiar with ALL of which I speak. It's NOT simple, and takes a while to grasp, then will your mind (and your eyes/hands/feet) to DO. But your MIND has to grasp the concept, formulate a detailed plan and execute that plan...

I'll post some real-life examples later.

kespiritu10

Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets podcasts on iTunes has been very helpful especially Mr.Krause's podcast. @procoach/velociraptor, I hope you two can collaborate on a podcast together as well. I learned so much in that 43 mins.

ProCoach

Nice site, Adam! Will check out your books.

Thanks for the kind words, kespiritu10! You'll have mail, in a minute.

kespiritu10

Thank you ProCoach!