email of DE accidents
03-28-2011, 08:19 PM
#91
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03-28-2011, 10:38 PM
#92
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OK, I have been asked to step in on the insurance side of the post-
<<snip>>
1) The cost for a club to insure a DE event is less then a race event. Insurance is available readily for both but there is a difference in price. The underwriting that spells out "Drivers Education event" to the underwriter who may not be your typical car enthusiast like all of us here is Timing and Scoring. It is much easier without any gray issues to not have a central timing system for a HPDE/DE event. With that said there is no way for anyone to stop an individual to taking his own times. We all know it happens and one can argue its a great learning tool if you use it correctly.(maybe I should have said that
)
<<snip>>
1) The cost for a club to insure a DE event is less then a race event. Insurance is available readily for both but there is a difference in price. The underwriting that spells out "Drivers Education event" to the underwriter who may not be your typical car enthusiast like all of us here is Timing and Scoring. It is much easier without any gray issues to not have a central timing system for a HPDE/DE event. With that said there is no way for anyone to stop an individual to taking his own times. We all know it happens and one can argue its a great learning tool if you use it correctly.(maybe I should have said that
)
I know of no HPDE/DE event that sets up, maintains or disseminates times from a "central timing system." That's always been the premise of DE's. A NON-competitive event.
Another correction. A trackside "beacon" is not a "transponder."
A "transponder" is a transmitter that sends an individual, keyed identity to a "central timing system" maintained by the organization operating the event. These devices are ALWAYS mounted on and powered by the car. They are used in Club Racing and Time Trials for competition scoring purposes and are not used in HPDE/DE because none of the organizers have the equipment to pick up and tally the performance relationship of each car to one another, even if the cars were equipped with transponders.
A "beacon" is a device that sends an infrared signal to a car equipped with data acquisition equipment to determine location for the comparison of on-board performance recordings. It is not "central," and generally keyed only to that car. No way to compare. No official presence, just the private property of the car owner. Used for far more than simple lap time generation. Used to find points of lesser and greater performance and to identify where in the session it occurred!
Traqmate, AiM, MoTeC or any of these data acquisition systems are not capable of communicating to a central source or even posting times outside the software package used to read them, other than on in-car displays.
Even older camcorders record a running time stamp, for goodness sake!
Sheesh!
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
03-28-2011, 11:41 PM
#93
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My last PCA DE a few weeks ago at the drivers meeting they made a big deal out of guys with lap timers like Traqmate and/or transponders on the pit wall and video cameras and told everyone to turn them off or go home. They made a few take the transponder down too.
Our PCA club prez said insurance company's for PCA and car owners are finding these video's and talk about track times on the internet and are making a big stink that DE's are now timed events. Track owners and PCA clubs could lose out and not be able to offer DE events in the near future.
Our PCA club prez said insurance company's for PCA and car owners are finding these video's and talk about track times on the internet and are making a big stink that DE's are now timed events. Track owners and PCA clubs could lose out and not be able to offer DE events in the near future.
But a participants timing of his own "session" is not a timed event. When I had my little mishap the insurance company called the track to find out if the "event" was a competition and/or timed. The answer was NO.
In my role as event chair I have had to fill out forms and talk to the insurance folks I am pretty clear about telling them its a not timed non competitive event notwithstanding what individuals do with electronics.
03-29-2011, 10:12 AM
#94
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I have always been of the opinion that the language of an auto insurance policy that talks about a timed events is from the view point of the organizers, meaning that the club putting on the event can't time you, such as an auto cross or time trials which are sanctioned PCA events. So you would not be covered in an auto cross. Insurance contracts are my business but interpretation of contracts is in the hands of the State laws where you reside.
But a participants timing of his own "session" is not a timed event. When I had my little mishap the insurance company called the track to find out if the "event" was a competition and/or timed. The answer was NO.
In my role as event chair I have had to fill out forms and talk to the insurance folks I am pretty clear about telling them its a not timed non competitive event notwithstanding what individuals do with electronics.
But a participants timing of his own "session" is not a timed event. When I had my little mishap the insurance company called the track to find out if the "event" was a competition and/or timed. The answer was NO.
In my role as event chair I have had to fill out forms and talk to the insurance folks I am pretty clear about telling them its a not timed non competitive event notwithstanding what individuals do with electronics.
03-29-2011, 10:57 AM
#95
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Peter- Unfortunately there are some DE groups out there that I know of that allow participants to rent transponders for the weekend from them. I try and explain why in personal opinion it is a bad idea but sometimes the big picture is lost. Chubb just pulled there DE physical Damage coverage because of an over 300% loss ratio. We all have to work to make the events as safe as possible .Cars are so much fast now then ever before. When things happen the happen quick and learning curves of a lot of drivers are far out weighed by the cars performance. Example: I have raced for 20+ plus years everything from open wheel, all kind of sedans to NASCAR Busch Grand Nationals and my current street car is one of the fastest cars I have ever driven on the race track. (and its on street tires) Kinda scary if you think about it.
The Auto policies I have been reading go way beyond the old racing activity exclusion. They now include verbiage as: any off road activity,any driving schools,any on track activity etc. Its all on a state by state basis and sometimes I see the same company same state but different forms.
The Auto policies I have been reading go way beyond the old racing activity exclusion. They now include verbiage as: any off road activity,any driving schools,any on track activity etc. Its all on a state by state basis and sometimes I see the same company same state but different forms.
03-29-2011, 11:24 AM
#96
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That seems like the correct approach, but you do have to be careful how the event is conducted so that this is no impression that lap times are exchanged or reviewed by instructors. Insurance companies make money denying claims!
03-29-2011, 04:49 PM
#98
All this chatter while many of us (me included) utilize pictures of our DE cars in our avatar, often on race tracks and sometimes side by side or nose to tail with other cars.We may not be racing but it sure just looks that way.
Me's thinks its time to make a change.
Say
to my GT3 @ Sebring .
Tom B.
Me's thinks its time to make a change.
Say
to my GT3 @ Sebring .Tom B.
03-29-2011, 05:59 PM
#101
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All this chatter while many of us (me included) utilize pictures of our DE cars in our avatar, often on race tracks and sometimes side by side or nose to tail with other cars.We may not be racing but it sure just looks that way.
Me's thinks its time to make a change.
Sayto my GT3 @ Sebring .
Tom B.
Me's thinks its time to make a change.
Say
to my GT3 @ Sebring .Tom B.
<<<<------------------ Now you understand
03-29-2011, 06:13 PM
#103
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If you want insurance that you are confident will pay, buy on-track physical damage insurance, and be done with it. If you have a street car on the track and you are counting on your personal auto policy to cover, you are probably going to be disappointed.
As has been noted each state has different insurance policy wording, and each insurance company has a different attitude toward covering claims from shunts, but the preponderance of evidence suggests that getting a personal auto policy to pay an on track damage claim is difficult and approaching unlikely.
Back to our regularly scheduled thread about the propriety of posting pictures on the web.
As has been noted each state has different insurance policy wording, and each insurance company has a different attitude toward covering claims from shunts, but the preponderance of evidence suggests that getting a personal auto policy to pay an on track damage claim is difficult and approaching unlikely.
Back to our regularly scheduled thread about the propriety of posting pictures on the web.
03-29-2011, 06:17 PM
#104
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03-29-2011, 06:18 PM
#105
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I'd give her the best 28 seconds of her life! 