email of DE accidents
#61
Frank, you are definitely entitled to your own opinion, but I suspect that there are many people who would prefer to at least be asked for permission to have their wrecks posted on the internet. I get that you have already stated permission for all of your misfortunes to be posted on the internet, but I doubt others would grant the same latitude.
#62
For example, when my wife got into an accident in DE, we called up the insurance company and they had a few questions...
1) Were we on a racetrack? (Yes, we were)
2) Who else was in the car? (The instructor)
3) Was it a timed event? (No, it was not)
4) Was anybody else hurt? (No)
From the questioning that they had, it was clear to me that the big question was #4 (NOT #3). When you stop and think about it, it actually makes a ton of sense. The amount of money it takes to fix up a car pales in comparison to what it takes to fix up a person.
For that reason, I think it makes a LOT of sense for insurance companies to basically ignore DE's since the average DE person ends up being a lot safer on public roads than non-DE people (no stats to back that up though) and when a DE person gets into an incident, it is almost always a single-car incident (and when it isn't, the two cars are almost always going in the same direction), so the overall damage is generally a LOT cheaper than incidents on public streets.
#63
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The message from Pete went to region presidents. In our region it was shared with the board. The point as I see it involves the taking of pictures of a damaged car. I would agree that it is just bad form taking a picture of a damaged car that is not yours. Gums does not mind if others take pictures of his misfortune, but that is not the general point of Pete's email. I have had my share of damage and I still have an in car video of my off from Zone 2 DE, 2010, posted on you tube. (search vb996 if you like) That is my call.
Nicely done communication Mr. Tremper.
Nicely done communication Mr. Tremper.
#64
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If you are running DE's, you should consider coverage with Ontrackinsurance.com. I heard of a guy through a friend that bought a policy on his 996. Unfortunately, he had an accident and had to make a claim. His car is fixed and he is running again.
The company knows the high-performace insurance business and the owner is a PCA and NASA racer.
The company knows the high-performace insurance business and the owner is a PCA and NASA racer.
#65
Rennlist Member
My last PCA DE a few weeks ago at the drivers meeting they made a big deal out of guys with lap timers like Traqmate and/or transponders on the pit wall and video cameras and told everyone to turn them off or go home. They made a few take the transponder down too.
Our PCA club prez said insurance company's for PCA and car owners are finding these video's and talk about track times on the internet and are making a big stink that DE's are now timed events. Track owners and PCA clubs could lose out and not be able to offer DE events in the near future.
Our PCA club prez said insurance company's for PCA and car owners are finding these video's and talk about track times on the internet and are making a big stink that DE's are now timed events. Track owners and PCA clubs could lose out and not be able to offer DE events in the near future.
#66
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I did not get the email but I suspect the PCA brass has this scenario in mind:
"Hello Mr. Insurance Guy. We need to buy a general liability policy for our Driver's Education events."
"Sure thing. I can help you with that. Give me a few minutes, " says insurance guy.
Insurance guy pulls out his keyboard and googles "PCA DE CRASH" . . . .
http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
This is the problem. Help PCA help us keep our track events a reality.
"Hello Mr. Insurance Guy. We need to buy a general liability policy for our Driver's Education events."
"Sure thing. I can help you with that. Give me a few minutes, " says insurance guy.
Insurance guy pulls out his keyboard and googles "PCA DE CRASH" . . . .
http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
This is the problem. Help PCA help us keep our track events a reality.
#68
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
In my region we make a distinction between video and real time displays. The latter are not allowed. Traqmate is fine as long as there is no display inside the car.
#69
Rennlist Member
I did not get the email but I suspect the PCA brass has this scenario in mind:
"Hello Mr. Insurance Guy. We need to buy a general liability policy for our Driver's Education events."
"Sure thing. I can help you with that. Give me a few minutes, " says insurance guy.
Insurance guy pulls out his keyboard and googles "PCA DE CRASH" . . . .
http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
This is the problem. Help PCA help us keep our track events a reality.
"Hello Mr. Insurance Guy. We need to buy a general liability policy for our Driver's Education events."
"Sure thing. I can help you with that. Give me a few minutes, " says insurance guy.
Insurance guy pulls out his keyboard and googles "PCA DE CRASH" . . . .
http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
This is the problem. Help PCA help us keep our track events a reality.
#70
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
That is not the scenario at all. I was the the Zone 1 Presidents meeting this past Saturday and this topic was discussed by Pete. There is not a law suit that is driving this and the insurance costs to regions for DE's have not gone up in the past few years. It is simply to respect the privacy of other club members and not to make the decision, of whether or not to to post photos/videos of their misfortunes, for them.
#71
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Speaking to K&K, Naughton and a number of other insurance companies as an event organizer over the last twenty years, their definition of a "timed event" is one where there is a publicly available, organizer supplied comparison of performance between participants, i.e. time sheets and posted times. An Autocross is a timed event, because all who run are graded, based on times recorded for each run.
No DE qualifies as a "timed event," period.
If there is a Time Trial element or Club Race element in addition to the DE event, ONLY that portion of the event is considered a "timed event."
The ban against in-car data and display (what do you do about cars with the Sports Chrono in the dash?) is ill-informed and incorrect.
Individual timing (through data displays or timers in the car) has NO competitive element, is not publicly available, nor is there any place at DE's where comparative times are posted.
It's time this fallacy was exposed and the fear of it dispelled.
There is NO timed event without a public, structured and organizer supplied comparison of participant performance.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
#72
Rennlist Member
It can directly effect it members. PCA understands that they cannot stop people from taking photographs and video of incidents, and that is not the intent of the email. What they are asking for is people to use good judgment before they decide to make those videos or photos of another members misfortunes public without that members consent.
#73
I am all for privacy protection in this age of instant youtube via iphone.
Pete's request "shouldn't" be necessary in an ideal world, but it is. For those with manners, it will seem silly....but for those without manners, it could allow them to be excluded from future DE's and thus protect the vast majority of us from that stuff.....so I am for it. And I support a ban from future DE's if done, frankly.
And I think it is sad to need to be stated at all... I fully support Pete on this one.
Jeff
Pete's request "shouldn't" be necessary in an ideal world, but it is. For those with manners, it will seem silly....but for those without manners, it could allow them to be excluded from future DE's and thus protect the vast majority of us from that stuff.....so I am for it. And I support a ban from future DE's if done, frankly.
And I think it is sad to need to be stated at all... I fully support Pete on this one.
Jeff
#74
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I am all for privacy protection in this age of instant youtube via iphone.
Pete's request "shouldn't" be necessary in an ideal world, but it is. For those with manners, it will seem silly....but for those without manners, it could allow them to be excluded from future DE's and thus protect the vast majority of us from that stuff.....so I am for it. And I support a ban from future DE's if done, frankly.
And I think it is sad to need to be stated at all... I fully support Pete on this one.
Jeff
Pete's request "shouldn't" be necessary in an ideal world, but it is. For those with manners, it will seem silly....but for those without manners, it could allow them to be excluded from future DE's and thus protect the vast majority of us from that stuff.....so I am for it. And I support a ban from future DE's if done, frankly.
And I think it is sad to need to be stated at all... I fully support Pete on this one.
Jeff
#75
Rennlist Member
Bob, it's important to realize that "timed events" are verboten because they establish an organized, competitive event, far and away from the DE format that the insurance companies agree to underwrite.
Speaking to K&K, Naughton and a number of other insurance companies as an event organizer over the last twenty years, their definition of a "timed event" is one where there is a publicly available, organizer supplied comparison of performance between participants, i.e. time sheets and posted times. An Autocross is a timed event, because all who run are graded, based on times recorded for each run.
No DE qualifies as a "timed event," period.
If there is a Time Trial element or Club Race element in addition to the DE event, ONLY that portion of the event is considered a "timed event."
The ban against in-car data and display (what do you do about cars with the Sports Chrono in the dash?) is ill-informed and incorrect.
Individual timing (through data displays or timers in the car) has NO competitive element, is not publicly available, nor is there any place at DE's where comparative times are posted.
It's time this fallacy was exposed and the fear of it dispelled.
There is NO timed event without a public, structured and organizer supplied comparison of participant performance.
Speaking to K&K, Naughton and a number of other insurance companies as an event organizer over the last twenty years, their definition of a "timed event" is one where there is a publicly available, organizer supplied comparison of performance between participants, i.e. time sheets and posted times. An Autocross is a timed event, because all who run are graded, based on times recorded for each run.
No DE qualifies as a "timed event," period.
If there is a Time Trial element or Club Race element in addition to the DE event, ONLY that portion of the event is considered a "timed event."
The ban against in-car data and display (what do you do about cars with the Sports Chrono in the dash?) is ill-informed and incorrect.
Individual timing (through data displays or timers in the car) has NO competitive element, is not publicly available, nor is there any place at DE's where comparative times are posted.
It's time this fallacy was exposed and the fear of it dispelled.
There is NO timed event without a public, structured and organizer supplied comparison of participant performance.
I am all for privacy protection in this age of instant youtube via iphone.
Pete's request "shouldn't" be necessary in an ideal world, but it is. For those with manners, it will seem silly....but for those without manners, it could allow them to be excluded from future DE's and thus protect the vast majority of us from that stuff.....so I am for it. And I support a ban from future DE's if done, frankly.
And I think it is sad to need to be stated at all... I fully support Pete on this one.
Jeff
Pete's request "shouldn't" be necessary in an ideal world, but it is. For those with manners, it will seem silly....but for those without manners, it could allow them to be excluded from future DE's and thus protect the vast majority of us from that stuff.....so I am for it. And I support a ban from future DE's if done, frankly.
And I think it is sad to need to be stated at all... I fully support Pete on this one.
Jeff
If someone had posted video of my wife's crash at Calabogie last year I would have been more than upset.