what is going on with zone 8?
01-22-2011, 02:35 AM
#77
Three Wheelin'
Interesting thread.
I have always known of SDR's reputation of being a driving event-focused PCA region (as opposed to the wine and cheese/concours crowd up here in the Santa Barbara region; we are lucky to have 2-3 auto-Xs a year, no track events!), but I did not know that the rules for an entry-level DE were so strict. I will admit that I did not bother to read the 6speed thread in question, but I get the gist of it from reading this thread.
As a newly minted (in the last year) POC/PCA instructor, I must say that I like the idea of more safety rules rather than less. However, I agree that it is a bit unreasonable to expect somebody to install a rollbar/seats/harness in a brand new 9x7 that they installed lowering springs and exhaust tips on. It is very true that it is the driver that ultimately determines the safety level and my comfort level in the car.
Alas, we live in overly litigious Socal (though I still love it, I went to the beach last weekend!), and I think it might have been the potential liability that pushed the rules makers over the edge. Anyone else here gone to an event at the old Marine air base El Toro? You can't even pass/be passed with a point-by anywhere on track except at a designated passing lane that the slower car has to pull into that blows your whole lap (and the next one). Why? Because of lawyers. Thank goodness POC only had the one event there last year and is not going back.
I run with the POC, and I think they they have done a good job with their newly revised (for '10) safety rules . They are based on the level of the driver in conjunction with the modification level of the car. Basically, you do do not need to have a rollbar/harnesses unless you choose to run in time trial events (which are one step above the DE-type events we run) or if you modify your car above the stock class in an older, non-airbag car, or if you modify it above the "improved" level in a newer, airbag equipped car.
This makes sense, because in all likelihood if you are stepping up to the time trial level, you are going to be more likely to push the limits and take risks. You are welcome to stay in the short track/PDS level forever in the POC and run your street car with 3pt belts, you even get timed laps!
Overall, the SDR DE rules may be a bit extreme but I am not as mortally offended by them as some. They are welcome to run their club as they see fit and from what I've seen they have no problem filling them. I hope to run in one of their high speed auto-Xs at some point.
I have always known of SDR's reputation of being a driving event-focused PCA region (as opposed to the wine and cheese/concours crowd up here in the Santa Barbara region; we are lucky to have 2-3 auto-Xs a year, no track events!), but I did not know that the rules for an entry-level DE were so strict. I will admit that I did not bother to read the 6speed thread in question, but I get the gist of it from reading this thread.
As a newly minted (in the last year) POC/PCA instructor, I must say that I like the idea of more safety rules rather than less. However, I agree that it is a bit unreasonable to expect somebody to install a rollbar/seats/harness in a brand new 9x7 that they installed lowering springs and exhaust tips on. It is very true that it is the driver that ultimately determines the safety level and my comfort level in the car.
Alas, we live in overly litigious Socal (though I still love it, I went to the beach last weekend!), and I think it might have been the potential liability that pushed the rules makers over the edge. Anyone else here gone to an event at the old Marine air base El Toro? You can't even pass/be passed with a point-by anywhere on track except at a designated passing lane that the slower car has to pull into that blows your whole lap (and the next one). Why? Because of lawyers. Thank goodness POC only had the one event there last year and is not going back.
I run with the POC, and I think they they have done a good job with their newly revised (for '10) safety rules . They are based on the level of the driver in conjunction with the modification level of the car. Basically, you do do not need to have a rollbar/harnesses unless you choose to run in time trial events (which are one step above the DE-type events we run) or if you modify your car above the stock class in an older, non-airbag car, or if you modify it above the "improved" level in a newer, airbag equipped car.
This makes sense, because in all likelihood if you are stepping up to the time trial level, you are going to be more likely to push the limits and take risks. You are welcome to stay in the short track/PDS level forever in the POC and run your street car with 3pt belts, you even get timed laps!
Overall, the SDR DE rules may be a bit extreme but I am not as mortally offended by them as some. They are welcome to run their club as they see fit and from what I've seen they have no problem filling them. I hope to run in one of their high speed auto-Xs at some point.
01-22-2011, 03:08 AM
#78
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How much time to you have? The rules apply to DE as well at time trial.
I read through that entire 6speed thread and it's all true. If you are in a prepared class (which could mean just a few mods), you have to wear a fire suit, roll bar, 5 or 6 pt. harness etc.
It's mostly a San Diego Region thing as they are the big dog in terms of track events in Zone 8. The other regions within Zone 8 are small fish and SDR is the 800 pound gorilla that runs the TT for the entire region.
What's more interesting is that they used to be very strict with their prior experience required to run a DE or TT. Now, they have no prior experience necessary to run a DE. If a guy like the one on 6speed who is virtually new to track events has a few mods, he is not going to go out and buy a fire suit, roll bar and harnesses. He just wants to drive on a proper track. Every other region in the country allows that, but not SDR/Zone8. Makes no sense.
I've run with SDR before and their DEs were great and very affordable. Their TT were great too, but I understand they have combined them now and it's way more expensive to participate.... for example if you want to run 2 timed laps at the end of a time trial, that will set you back $25. It used to be included in the cost of the event. Not anymore.
Others charge $105 - $125 for a track day at Streets of Willow, but SDR charges way more. Totally not worth it, so that's why I'm looking elsewhere including POC.
PCASDR is hampered with a tech advisor by the name of Steve Grosskemper from Dieter's, a local indy shop in San Diego. His rep is well known, but when I actually brought a car in, it was worse than I thought. He makes Napoleon look like Mother Teresa. Sorry, but having someone like that as your front man for your business is not smart and not only has he lost my business, but I advise anyone with a German made car to avoid Dieter's at all costs.
There is way more, but you get the point. Zone 8 is pretty messed up.
I read through that entire 6speed thread and it's all true. If you are in a prepared class (which could mean just a few mods), you have to wear a fire suit, roll bar, 5 or 6 pt. harness etc.
It's mostly a San Diego Region thing as they are the big dog in terms of track events in Zone 8. The other regions within Zone 8 are small fish and SDR is the 800 pound gorilla that runs the TT for the entire region.
What's more interesting is that they used to be very strict with their prior experience required to run a DE or TT. Now, they have no prior experience necessary to run a DE. If a guy like the one on 6speed who is virtually new to track events has a few mods, he is not going to go out and buy a fire suit, roll bar and harnesses. He just wants to drive on a proper track. Every other region in the country allows that, but not SDR/Zone8. Makes no sense.
I've run with SDR before and their DEs were great and very affordable. Their TT were great too, but I understand they have combined them now and it's way more expensive to participate.... for example if you want to run 2 timed laps at the end of a time trial, that will set you back $25. It used to be included in the cost of the event. Not anymore.
Others charge $105 - $125 for a track day at Streets of Willow, but SDR charges way more. Totally not worth it, so that's why I'm looking elsewhere including POC.
PCASDR is hampered with a tech advisor by the name of Steve Grosskemper from Dieter's, a local indy shop in San Diego. His rep is well known, but when I actually brought a car in, it was worse than I thought. He makes Napoleon look like Mother Teresa. Sorry, but having someone like that as your front man for your business is not smart and not only has he lost my business, but I advise anyone with a German made car to avoid Dieter's at all costs.
There is way more, but you get the point. Zone 8 is pretty messed up.
the rules make no sense.
DE a car with a few mods then you are subjected to all sorts of strange rules? good luck.
01-22-2011, 03:12 AM
#79
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Interesting thread.
I run with the POC, and I think they they have done a good job with their newly revised (for '10) safety rules . They are based on the level of the driver in conjunction with the modification level of the car. Basically, you do do not need to have a rollbar/harnesses unless you choose to run in time trial events (which are one step above the DE-type events we run) or if you modify your car above the stock class in an older, non-airbag car, or if you modify it above the "improved" level in a newer, airbag equipped car.
Overall, the SDR DE rules may be a bit extreme but I am not as mortally offended by them as some. They are welcome to run their club as they see fit and from what I've seen they have no problem filling them. I hope to run in one of their high speed auto-Xs at some point.
I run with the POC, and I think they they have done a good job with their newly revised (for '10) safety rules . They are based on the level of the driver in conjunction with the modification level of the car. Basically, you do do not need to have a rollbar/harnesses unless you choose to run in time trial events (which are one step above the DE-type events we run) or if you modify your car above the stock class in an older, non-airbag car, or if you modify it above the "improved" level in a newer, airbag equipped car.
Overall, the SDR DE rules may be a bit extreme but I am not as mortally offended by them as some. They are welcome to run their club as they see fit and from what I've seen they have no problem filling them. I hope to run in one of their high speed auto-Xs at some point.
PCA... well.... very region dependent and some are clicky to say the least. that's why u see a lot of PCA offshoots like PRC POC and such. good thing i click well.... thus i should shut up
01-22-2011, 06:49 PM
#81
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01-24-2011, 03:28 PM
#83
In the FWIW Dept., The San Diego PCA just completed two separate events in January.
The first on Jan 15, an AX which is part of a regular year-round 13 event series with Z8, had an attendance of 106 drivers.
The second, a DE/TT this last weekend at Willow sold out with 70 drivers.
Again, I don't participate in these due to POC race schedule, but pretty hard to argue with success like this.
Just sayin'.
The first on Jan 15, an AX which is part of a regular year-round 13 event series with Z8, had an attendance of 106 drivers.
The second, a DE/TT this last weekend at Willow sold out with 70 drivers.
Again, I don't participate in these due to POC race schedule, but pretty hard to argue with success like this.
Just sayin'.
01-25-2011, 09:29 PM
#84
PCA Zone 8 rules for DE
Well this has certainly stirred up a lot of interest here and on 6speedonline
A little background might be helpful. The rules for Zone 8 were developed in the context of a competitive time trial series, and are now being adapted to a DE paradigm.
Many instructors were uncomfortable about decreasing the required TT safety equipment for the DE program. Note that the PCA has minimal standards for DE listed and allow the different Zones and regions to have more stringent standards. Are they too stringent? For some, the answer is yes. Others disagree, but some would be happy to drive with their tops down and no helmets or other requirements.
Until this year, before you were allowed in a track event you needed to have done several days of autocross, or Performance Driving School events in the Qualcomm Stadium parking lot.
Now about the required safety equipment. We presently class our cars by adding the points for different modifications. There are Street Stock and Stock classes that require no additional safety equipment beyond a helmet and long pants and shirts and closed shoes.
More than 8 points puts you into our Prepared class which has the requirement for a 5-6 point harness and a fire extinguisher. A roll bar is recommended but not required.
More than 20 points puts you into the Improved class and a roll bar is required along with open-ended steel lug nuts.
More than 40 points is the Modified class and you now need a driver's suit.
The following summarizes the safety equipment that is required for Porsches as they pass up through the classes due to modifications:
• 9+ Pts: Fire extinguisher (at TT/DE)
5 or 6 point harnesses are required (at TT/DE)
Roll bar or cage is required for Boxster, 996 & 997 Cabriolet (at TT/DE)
• 21+ Pts: Roll bar or cage is required for all cars (at TT/DE).
Open-ended steel lug nuts are required for all cars (AX and TT/DE)
• 41+ Pts: Driving suits, gloves, socks and boots are required (at TT/DE)
The driver in question, did not have a stock car, there were several modifications that increased the performance (and points).
He listed them as:
"It is a 2010 C2S
Modifications: CAI, plenum, ECU flash, and center muffler delete; dyno 435hp at crank
Suspension: H&R sways, Bilstein damptronics
Wheels: RG5 monolites"
The combination of modifications put him into the Prepared class and he was advised of that fact and offered several solutions to bring his car into compliance. Either adding the 5/6 point harnesses, using the stock ECU or not installing the Bilsteins before the event.
He declined all of these options and then went "Flat-Out" on the 6speedonline forum when the rules were not bent to his satisfaction.
He was not asked to show up with a driver's suit, roll cage and harnesses for his first DE. He was asked to have his car meet the safety requirements and several members tried to assist in this task, ultimately to no avail.
Should we simplify the DE rules and just use the minimal standards? That is one solution and over time that may be the solution the Zone finally comes to. But that is not where the rules are today and if you are going to have rules, you need to follow them.
We just finished a couple of great events with over 100 drivers at the autocross and 70+ at the DE/TT event at Streets of Willow.
We have 2 more DE's scheduled at Auto Club Speedway infield in Fontana along with DE/TT events at:
April 8-10 Auto CLub Speedway Roval with Club race at Zone 8 Festival of Speed
May 21-22 at Chuckwalla Speedway
September 24-25 at Willow Springs
November 12-13 at Buttonwillow
Registration is with Motorsports Reg http://pcasdr.motorsportreg.com/
We are a friendly group and are happy to share the track with other drivers and cars that meet the safety requirements.
Greg Phillips
A little background might be helpful. The rules for Zone 8 were developed in the context of a competitive time trial series, and are now being adapted to a DE paradigm.
Many instructors were uncomfortable about decreasing the required TT safety equipment for the DE program. Note that the PCA has minimal standards for DE listed and allow the different Zones and regions to have more stringent standards. Are they too stringent? For some, the answer is yes. Others disagree, but some would be happy to drive with their tops down and no helmets or other requirements.
Until this year, before you were allowed in a track event you needed to have done several days of autocross, or Performance Driving School events in the Qualcomm Stadium parking lot.
Now about the required safety equipment. We presently class our cars by adding the points for different modifications. There are Street Stock and Stock classes that require no additional safety equipment beyond a helmet and long pants and shirts and closed shoes.
More than 8 points puts you into our Prepared class which has the requirement for a 5-6 point harness and a fire extinguisher. A roll bar is recommended but not required.
More than 20 points puts you into the Improved class and a roll bar is required along with open-ended steel lug nuts.
More than 40 points is the Modified class and you now need a driver's suit.
The following summarizes the safety equipment that is required for Porsches as they pass up through the classes due to modifications:
• 9+ Pts: Fire extinguisher (at TT/DE)
5 or 6 point harnesses are required (at TT/DE)
Roll bar or cage is required for Boxster, 996 & 997 Cabriolet (at TT/DE)
• 21+ Pts: Roll bar or cage is required for all cars (at TT/DE).
Open-ended steel lug nuts are required for all cars (AX and TT/DE)
• 41+ Pts: Driving suits, gloves, socks and boots are required (at TT/DE)
The driver in question, did not have a stock car, there were several modifications that increased the performance (and points).
He listed them as:
"It is a 2010 C2S
Modifications: CAI, plenum, ECU flash, and center muffler delete; dyno 435hp at crank
Suspension: H&R sways, Bilstein damptronics
Wheels: RG5 monolites"
The combination of modifications put him into the Prepared class and he was advised of that fact and offered several solutions to bring his car into compliance. Either adding the 5/6 point harnesses, using the stock ECU or not installing the Bilsteins before the event.
He declined all of these options and then went "Flat-Out" on the 6speedonline forum when the rules were not bent to his satisfaction.
He was not asked to show up with a driver's suit, roll cage and harnesses for his first DE. He was asked to have his car meet the safety requirements and several members tried to assist in this task, ultimately to no avail.
Should we simplify the DE rules and just use the minimal standards? That is one solution and over time that may be the solution the Zone finally comes to. But that is not where the rules are today and if you are going to have rules, you need to follow them.
We just finished a couple of great events with over 100 drivers at the autocross and 70+ at the DE/TT event at Streets of Willow.
We have 2 more DE's scheduled at Auto Club Speedway infield in Fontana along with DE/TT events at:
April 8-10 Auto CLub Speedway Roval with Club race at Zone 8 Festival of Speed
May 21-22 at Chuckwalla Speedway
September 24-25 at Willow Springs
November 12-13 at Buttonwillow
Registration is with Motorsports Reg http://pcasdr.motorsportreg.com/
We are a friendly group and are happy to share the track with other drivers and cars that meet the safety requirements.
Greg Phillips
01-25-2011, 09:57 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
Just gleaning through here, and I see above someone from the "good ol' days" who remembers the progression (though we were merely autocrossing, then he went to try and kill himself on two wheels).............BUT if you look at a GGR rule book even further back circa 1980 when I came on the scene, you'd find that the line in the sand for enhanced safety equipment was basically the installation of larger torsion bars. That meant roll bar. After two events, no matter what class you ran, it was belts (though laughably installed for the most part in conjunction with stock seats) and a fire suit.
There was plenty of participation, and usually a waiting list. Guys like Walt Maas (fresh off on his IMSA GTU championship) and Bob Garretson would be out there. Jerry Woods and Bruce Anderson would be in the pits working on cars. For a regional time trial.
I vaguely remember similar in Arizona when I arrived there in 1983, but I was racing in SCCA, etc. and didn't get on track too much in my 911. I put on or was heavily involved in putting on our Time Trials (yes, I timed the end-of-day runs with my own stopwatch), and we probably didn't exactly follow whatever was really in the Zone 8 rule book to the letter.
So what's different now?
There was plenty of participation, and usually a waiting list. Guys like Walt Maas (fresh off on his IMSA GTU championship) and Bob Garretson would be out there. Jerry Woods and Bruce Anderson would be in the pits working on cars. For a regional time trial.
I vaguely remember similar in Arizona when I arrived there in 1983, but I was racing in SCCA, etc. and didn't get on track too much in my 911. I put on or was heavily involved in putting on our Time Trials (yes, I timed the end-of-day runs with my own stopwatch), and we probably didn't exactly follow whatever was really in the Zone 8 rule book to the letter.
So what's different now?
