M758

Look there is alot of un-needed pilling on of San Diego. Their system is not perfect. Never has been and never will be. Of course nobody's system is perfect.

Personally I find the Zone 8 rules for classing far superior to the PCA club racing rules. The reasoning being is that it lessens the issues of 1-2 mods bumping you to free for all class. Also remember PCA in southern california operates with POC in the are as well. Porsche owners club has had points per modification based classing for what 20-30 years? I would guess that 50-60% of California Zone 8 also does track events with POC and those 50-60 are regulars vs 1-2 event types.

You also don't understand in San Diego Autocross is step 1 before DE. New drivers are encourged to run autocross events at the stadium before they DE. These autocross events are high speed autocrosses where 3rd gear is common. To run autocross you need to put the car in a class. So I would roughly say that 90% of new DE drivers have spend time in autocross first so already have classed the car. That makes it easy to use that autocross class to drive safety requirements for DE.

Did you also know that San Diego has DE events in a parking lot? Yes the make super fast autocross courses and run them like DE's, but waive some of big track DE rules due to the environment.


Point is there is alot you DON'T know about San Diego and why things are done as they are. They have system and it works for them. I personally may not agree with every last detail of it, but I can respect what they are trying to do. Dismissing the entire program because you don't understand it is foolish. I can pick out flaws in any type of system for DE, but like I said earlier in this thread safety vs fun vs participation is always a balance. There is alot that drives that balance.

Potomac-Greg

Joe:
I agree that there's no reason to "bash" any group. If they're system works, they'll benefit, if not they'll fix it.

But I do think you're too many years and miles out from the novice DE mindset to see the issue. Most of us started this way, driving the daily driver to a local track, with all-season tires, blue masking tape and a bag of tools hoping to get home without using them. Maybe we would enjoy it, maybe not. The investment was a few hundred bucks for entrance fees. If you add a layer of race-like classification requiring the purchase and installation of safety equipment, I would say that far more than half of the first-timers do not bother. And those who do not become first timers, never become second timers, instructors or club racers. We all benefit when the sport gains popularity, and we all lose when its popularity fades.

M758

The problem is that it is misconception. Bring a 100% stock car out to one of their DE's all you need is 3pt belts. It is only when you start modding that you might run into a problem.

I started inAutocross DE a long time ago, but I did start under Zone 8 rules. Back then there were some detail differences, but much of what you see existed then.

I did my first autocross in 1998 in PCA Az. Car was stock 944 Turbo S classed in KS. I did 4-5 autocrosses before I did my first track day. That was with NASA because PCA did not even to DE in Az at the time. Over the next 2 years I did more autocross and NASA DE. About the time decided to build my track car in 2000 I read the PCA Ax/DE rules carefully to understand where it would put me.

The other thing that most of you are missing is this. If you are first timer in San Diego or in Arizona the FIRST recommendation for track time will be Autocross. Both San Diego and Az run fine autocross programs. We run multiple laps around the cones and have autocross schools and San Diego has also been blessed with a large autocross site so can run 3rd gear autocrosses. These are the places for first timers. 90% drivers in these regions run autocross first and the "graduate" to DE. So the percentage of true first timers is different than maybe in other areas with smaller autocross programs.

Also present in Az and So-cal are organizations like NASA who do 16+ DE days a year locally. PCA does 4-5 max. So-cal also has POC and that region has good time trail contigent. Az PCA does not really do time trial.

So my point is that in Zone 8 there are avenues for new drivers to come in an start and not get forced to put in a roll bar. There are many paths and the DE rules are one piece of that puzzle rather than the entire picture.

Most posting here know nothing of all of that and just hear DE and mandatory roll bar and go nuts. Understand the big picture and its not such crazy idea to require more just 3p belts at certain levels. I think it fair to discuss the details, but to completely write off the Zone 8 progam as crazy is just unfair.

Veloce Raptor

As I said, I have felt (and been) safer riding in a modified 996 GT3 with Motons and R-comps, no roll bar, 3 point belts, etc. at Road Atlanta (a track with real things to hit) than in a much less powerful & capable car with a full cage, seats, harnesses, fire system, Nomex, etc. at MSR (a track with nothing to hit at all). Both were in DE's.

Why? Because of the DRIVER, not the crap on the car. In the first instance, the driver was my friend Seth Thomas. In the second example, it was a ****** who was significantly overdriving, to say the least.








Professional Racing and Driving Coach

Longdaddy

noone is "bashing or dismissing" the DE program, what's with the victim complex?

also, not attending your events, not playing by your rules, or not typing out our credentials in all caps, does not make our opinions any less valid than yours.

as far as I can tell, posters in this thread did more damage to the reputation of their club(s) than the OP in the 6speed thread, by repeatedly dismissing valid criticism, telling people to "go run with someone else", or implying that we should stay quiet because we live and drive in other regions.

mglobe

If I read these rules right, I can drive a 997 GT2RS with three-point belts, but if I take a 996 and chip it, put in coilovers, stiffer sways, camber plates, and run on Nittos, I have to have harnesses. Is that right?

Someone can mod a SC in a similar way and be required to use harnesses, but any moron can show up in a stock GT-R and drive flat out wearing a seat belt?

Nizer

What happens if someone shows up to a Zone 8 DE in an unmodded Carrera GT?

Matt Lane

I believe in that instance, such driver must, without question, drive Flat Out.



Just a bit of levity in an eye-opening thread...

It's up to every region to run their events as they believe is best for their members. That said, I am grateful for the reasonable and uncomplicated manner with which we do things up here in Rennsport.

BTW - we have coincidentally built up an exemplary safety record. And it's not because additional safety gear is mandated. It's becasue we foster an environment and culture that strongly discourages folks from driving out of control (with or without the extra safety gear). Adding arbitrary obstacles to attracting DE participants would be bad for us in our region. But if it works for you and the majority of your membership, hey, that's great!



Can't wait for spring!

Brian A.

They'll win their DE.

Longdaddy

sounds like it would be sent to do auto-x until they figure out how to level the playing field.

mglobe

Same for Lone Star Region

FGL28

Dude,

If questioning someone who makes comments without visiting or participating in a Driving Event, like you did, is defensive or being tone deaf or circling the wagon or my way or the hiway then I am guilty. Having never been to a Zone 8 event I find it courious how you "know" what is best for an series of events you have never attended. I would never comment on your teaching skill without having you as an instructor yet, you do it to Zone 8 events.

Veloce Raptor

I am reading your rules, which you are defending here. They describe how you run your DE events, which you have confirmed here. Why do I need to fly all the way out there to learn the same thing?









Professional Racing and Driving Coach

BostonDMD

With all the safety precautions, I bet all DE drivers in Zone 8 are wicked fast..........

Johninrsf

Respectfully, this type of comment is way off base.
I race with POC but I know the PCA people to whom you refer and you couldn't be more wrong.