utkinpol

http://zone8.pca.org/rules/2011/2011Z8Rules.pdf

essentially it looks like they have enforced classes for regular DEs and everything that does not fit 'stock' (like a modified exhaust) will result in additional requirements like bucket seats, roll bar, 6pt harness and etc.
a guy who started a thread on 6speed was barred from DEs :
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ck-events.html

So what I wonder about as this forum got plenty of PCA folks - is this a product of a local zone 8 creativity or a new generic national guideline?
I guess there are always other organizations than PCA for DE but what gives?

Bob Rouleau

The document is a bit confusing. I looks like the class rules you refer to relate to competitive events such as time trials which would make sense. As a pure DE, I can't see why such rules apply. On the other hand the 6spd thread suggests that they do impose classes on DE with additional safety equipment. This is a radical departure from anything in Zone 1. I wonder what Pete Tremper would have to say about this as it seems to diverge from National's Best Practices.

AllanJ

I found this paragraph in there:

"A Drivers Education (a.k.a. Drivers Ed or DE) Event is defined as a continuous lap-driving event with cooperative passing. Passing to be permitted as allowed by Section XVI. There shall be no official timing as the event is intended as instructional only, with no competition. There are no award points assigned for, and no trophies associated with DE events. While non-competitive, safety equipment is still required according to the vehicles level of modification. Therefore drivers must determine what class they would run in for a Time Trial and install the appropriate safety equipment, as required in Section XIII."

Haven't looked further yet.

[edit: looking some more]

"For Time Trial and DE, five or six-point harnesses are required for all drivers and passengers running in any Prepared class or higher and are strongly recommended for all entrants. 5 or 6-point harnesses are allowed at Autocross events, but they are not required."

Prepared class is defined as:

"3. PREPARED CLASSES
Any car having from 9 to 20 modification points inclusively (as determined in Section III). Race tires (slicks) are not allowed in this class."

The points system is very convoluted.

OMFG!!! If you put bigger brakes on your car you will take 2 points for that. Fine for competition, but bigger brakes for DE will contribute to extra safety requirements. Increased aero (ex: adding non-stock RS wing and front splitter to a 996 GT3) will be 1 point for oem and 2 points for aftermarket.

If I read this right, a 997 GT3 with 335 tires on the rear will be assessed 2 points, and going to DOT R-comps will be 2 or 4 additional points, depending on the tread wear rating.

If I didn't make a mistake, a 997 GT3 with a non-stock brake kit to dump the ceramics, running 335 R6's and non-stock aero like RS bits will dump you into the Prepared class and require harnesses. Not sure if you need the rest of the Prepared stuff like FE.

911FM

That doesn't sound right... Looks like they are adding classes on top of run groups for DEs. Very confusing set of rules indeed.

It seems all the rules apply to DE, AX and Time trials without differences.

"Rule Guidelines:
In addition to the guidelines mentioned in the General section of these rules, for the driving events the Zone 8 Rules committee also values these:
• Encourage safety, within known proven technology
• Encourage and support driver instruction
• Discourage car modification
• Fairly handicap allowed modifications

P5.

"DRIVING EVENT CLASSES
A. Car classification serves two purposes. The first is fairness in competition through grouping together cars with similar performance characteristics. Second is to determine the safety equipment required by the vehicle"

"The Safety equipment required is determined by the type of event (AX, TT, DE), the venue type (parking lot or race track) and the level of vehicle modification. For this reason, driver’s need to determine their competition class even when they are participating in non-competitive events, such as DE.

"Time Trial and DE Entrants in all Modified and higher classes are required to wear approved driving suits, gloves, shoes and socks. Leather top athletic shoes, leather gloves and cotton socks may be worn"


With these rules, you would require a novice driver to have a roll cage, etc. just for slightly modifying the car. Glad I am on the East coast.
Since when should there be "fairness in competition" in a DE event. I guess you can really win a DE in this region.
I understand different requirements may apply to the higher run groups but having to determine your competition class first when signing up for a DE seems a very strange logic.

oh, and the kicker:

"The Zone 8 Rules committee espouses the following:
[]
• Fairness to entrants
• Encourage participation at ALL events
• Encourage new member participation and retention
• Make the rules clear and very hard to misinterpret
[]"

FM

9.5 Degrees

How much time to you have? The rules apply to DE as well at time trial.

I read through that entire 6speed thread and it's all true. If you are in a prepared class (which could mean just a few mods), you have to wear a fire suit, roll bar, 5 or 6 pt. harness etc.

It's mostly a San Diego Region thing as they are the big dog in terms of track events in Zone 8. The other regions within Zone 8 are small fish and SDR is the 800 pound gorilla that runs the TT for the entire region.

What's more interesting is that they used to be very strict with their prior experience required to run a DE or TT. Now, they have no prior experience necessary to run a DE. If a guy like the one on 6speed who is virtually new to track events has a few mods, he is not going to go out and buy a fire suit, roll bar and harnesses. He just wants to drive on a proper track. Every other region in the country allows that, but not SDR/Zone8. Makes no sense.

I've run with SDR before and their DEs were great and very affordable. Their TT were great too, but I understand they have combined them now and it's way more expensive to participate.... for example if you want to run 2 timed laps at the end of a time trial, that will set you back $25. It used to be included in the cost of the event. Not anymore.

Others charge $105 - $125 for a track day at Streets of Willow, but SDR charges way more. Totally not worth it, so that's why I'm looking elsewhere including POC.

PCASDR is hampered with a tech advisor by the name of Steve Grosskemper from Dieter's, a local indy shop in San Diego. His rep is well known, but when I actually brought a car in, it was worse than I thought. He makes Napoleon look like Mother Teresa. Sorry, but having someone like that as your front man for your business is not smart and not only has he lost my business, but I advise anyone with a German made car to avoid Dieter's at all costs.

There is way more, but you get the point. Zone 8 is pretty messed up.

utkinpol

$105 for a track day is quite nice.
SCDA which has nice format and allows me to drive solo charges $275 for a day at NHMS. NER/NCR charges $185.
I think for east coast CT club events at Lime Rock are only ones priced lower...

As of zone 8 - it is really fascinating to what extremes some people go for no obvious reason, i do not understand it at all, but, well, it`s not my business. it gets more interesting btw - zone 8 rep is on that 6speed thread now.

Evan Fullerton

I wouldn't lump all of Zone 8 in with the SDR region. SDR runs more track events than any of the other regions and has been doing so for much longer than anyone else so they have some what set the standard that all the other regions have follow almost by default. Given San Diego's demographics, a number of the people who lead or have led the group are current or ex career military and the rest is kinda self explanatory from there. Another feature is that the majority of the people in power have been driving highly modified older Porsches and the rules have never really evolved very much to include the newer cars. This should all be addressed by next year though when there is finally some PCA National rules coming out for AX/DE/TT that should alleviate some of the confusion and redundancies.

I don't really have a problem with the safety rules that they have as they are some of the strictest out there and should result in a safer events but the historical statistics don't really seem to back up that theory. The saying of if you don't like our rules don't play in our pond get throne around a bit but the true reality is that if you are really interested in tracking your Porsche and live in So-Cal, you run with POC. If you want to AX, you run with PCA SDR and/or OCR (some run both series of ~10 events each). PCA does not have the club race presence on the West Coast that it does on the East so the gap has been filled by POC in So-Cal and PRC in Nor-Cal. I think some of it also has to do with having 4 tracks with in 3 hours of LA and 4 tracks with in 3 hours of San Francisco, nobody really want to travel farther than that so regional Porsche series separate from PCA have been run out here for quite some time.

FGL28

Well said.

The Zone is trying to promote safety and level the playing field. I fail to understand why this is a bad thing.

But you forgot that Grand Prix and San Gabriel Valley has lots of events with /SGVR restarting their track Program at Pomona Raceway, not used for Road events for many years. Skip Carter of GPX has done seveal events at Buttonwillow and Willow springs.

9.5 Degrees, if you do not like SDR events I suggest you try other regions.

85Gold

And one day you suddenly realize that your DE program is dead because people voted with their feet and migrated to other programs. Don't know about left coast but the right coast has multiple groups to run with and if they don't deliver what the participants expect then they are gone.

Peter

Longdaddy

classy: PCA folks showing up to the internet thread making passive agressive insults about drivers who "cannot handle the cars they buy" or "could kill someone", getting caught posting under multiple accounts, etc.

good ol' boys club gone wild - someone need to clean the house in there.

also loved the comment to the tune of: ...and by "encouraging" safety at DEs we mean we will turn you away if you don't do to your car what we tell you to...

i am all about encouraging safety mods and discouraging newbies from modding their motors to 600rwhp before they get some seat time, but this is not how you do this!!!
asking people with modified cars to put cages in and firesuites on for their first DE pretty much guarantees that those folks will go back to tearing up the onramps at 2am until something goes very wrong.

i volunteer at local PCA car control school and one of the most rewarding things for me is seeing people leave being better (and safer) drivers - regardless of the car they showed up with - and realizing that there are better ways to learn their cars than fooling around on the street.

the clowns who made the rules in question and then came to troll 6speed thread have their priorities upside down and have no business being in charge of anything, as far as I am concerned. who knows what's behind that - maybe they want to keep their run groups exclusive to the old boys network, maybe someone likes making rules to compensate for whatever else is missing in his life, maybe it's just a knee jerk reaction to a newbie in a million rwhp turbo taking out another car at DE recently.

FGL28

Well Peter, being that you are in Florida, you probably were absent from the Grand Prix / San Gabriel Valley DE event that was full in November.

FGL28

Last time I looked this was not 6speed.

One of those "Clowns" you refer to is Michael Dolphin Zone 8 rep. Great way to make things right.

This is becoming a hit piece for Zone 8 and San Diego Region rather than accepting offers for help. Maybe one should consider NASA or POC.

Longdaddy

The bottom line is that they are blocking members (and guests) of their club who have modified cars, from attending their DE events.
Especially those who bought cars with performance/power options from Porsche and did "normal" DE mods to them.
Come one, you cannot think they really expect DE drivers to weld stuff to their cars or show up in fire suits!!!

I have been involved with DEs with various clubs for many years, including PCA in 2 regions, and banning mods is one of the least effective safety improvements you can make. Instructor improvements, better group assignments, reigning in people who drive too fast for the skill level regardless of cars/mods, driver meetings between sessions, etc, would all be far far more effective (and would turn away far fewer members and guests)

that PDF and comments posted on 6speed seem to indicate that turning away modified cars is a purpose in itself, safety talk is just an excuse.

missed this comment - I think we have an explanation!

someone is getting butthurt about not winning the DE trophy, so the rules need to be re-written to ban those annoying GT3s on hoosiers.

Rich Sandor

I hesitate to criticize my fellow DE organizers from a different region, especially considering they probably are one of the largest and most active regions with different circumstances that I am not privy to.

However, my knee jerk reaction is of disagreement. Whatever the reason is that they implemented these requirements, I don't think it's being done the right way. When you have multiple threads on multiple forums with the vast majority of posters voicing concern and disagreement, any level headed individual would swallow their ego and reassess their decision.

I can understand the reality that more and more people are showing up to track days with faster and faster cars, and they don't necessarily have adequate safety equipment. However, if these people are out for the first time, they should all have instructors, and the instructors should be responsible for ensuring that those drivers are driving at a pace that is acceptable for a novice DE participant. That responsibility should not be delegated to inanimate safety equipment.

Zone 8 has more members and trackdays than all of Canada combined does, and I'm sure that they can afford to alienate some drivers. On the other hand, our little region would be crippled if we had such rules implemented.

I wonder what the trigger was that caused zone 8 to implement 'classes' in DEs.

jrgordonsenior

They've had some bad accidents in their DE/TT events over the years. I remember a girl in a 993 hitting the wall at Cal Speedway a few years ago and having to be cutout of the car and airlifted to a local hospital. Perhaps it's a reaction to those type of incidents.....