what is going on with zone 8?
01-15-2011, 10:09 PM
#18
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01-15-2011, 11:42 PM
#19
Well said.
The Zone is trying to promote safety and level the playing field. I fail to understand why this is a bad thing.
But you forgot that Grand Prix and San Gabriel Valley has lots of events with /SGVR restarting their track Program at Pomona Raceway, not used for Road events for many years. Skip Carter of GPX has done seveal events at Buttonwillow and Willow springs.
9.5 Degrees, if you do not like SDR events I suggest you try other regions.
The Zone is trying to promote safety and level the playing field. I fail to understand why this is a bad thing.
But you forgot that Grand Prix and San Gabriel Valley has lots of events with /SGVR restarting their track Program at Pomona Raceway, not used for Road events for many years. Skip Carter of GPX has done seveal events at Buttonwillow and Willow springs.
9.5 Degrees, if you do not like SDR events I suggest you try other regions.
What others have said about SDR and being able to afford the loss of some drivers is true. The perception is that you should be honored to give your money to them. They basically don't care because they are always sold out.
The rules have to be changed. It's DE folks not a competition. Not a TT not a club race.
01-16-2011, 02:27 AM
#20
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Maybe other parts of the county look at this differently but getting events to fill up enough to not loose money is not a huge issue while safety is. If you want to just do a DE program that doesn't require strict safety, OTR, speed venture etc. will be more than happy to take your money. If you can afford a $100k GT3 or put suspension and slicks on a 996, you can afford a roll bar, harnesses, fire extinguisher, and buy a fire suit. While none of these things are required for a 100% stock car or even a lightly modified one with SDR or any of Zone 8, they are strongly recommended for everyone. The way the rules stand, you can do 20+ points worth of mods before you are required extra safety equipment. On my '75 911, I have put in a 3.0L motor, different torsion bars, different sway bars, Hoosiers, and some weight reduction and am still not required by the rules to add anymore safety equipment other than a fire extinguisher. I estimate that only maybe 20% of the cars we see at events are daily drivers so pretty much everyone's Porsche is a play car where race modifications and street manners don't conflict. The people who like to attend the wine tours and such that PCA offers as well tend to have a second or third Porsche for such activities or buy one in fairly short order of getting into driving events.
The AX program that SDR runs is more akin to a time attack at a track than they are to a parking lot AX. It is not uncommon to have almost 60mph average speeds and the fast cars topping out at 100mph on some courses, safety is a big concern as a number of cars have been crashed over the years. Off the top of my head, I remember a port a potty getting smashed, and a car going through a chain link fence and this is just at an AX. Stuff happens when you go fast and it is better you prepare for it than get hurt or worse yet sue PCA for allowing you to do something stupid. Prior to this year, you were required to attend 4 AX events before you could sign up for a DE or TT event. While safety is stressed, the instruction I have gotten and now give is more geared for going faster not simply navigating around the track. Mid corner at 120mph through Turn 8 at Willow Springs or 140+mph through Turn 1 at Cal Speedway is not the place to experience oversteer for the first time.
If you are an instructor, you know how scary it is to be in any car with a guy who doesn't know how to drive, let alone a GT3 or a 600+hp turbo. Some take to it quickly, some putter around at half throttle and you have to encourage them to push a little more but secretly fear that they will go off if they do, and then you have the ones that can't drive at all and are out of control from the word go. If you have to sit right seat in one of the latter cars, you will never ever question strict safety rules ever again. Sure it is the responsibility of the instructor to keep students roughly at the correct speed to skill ratio but in the newer cars, you have to be going at potentially lethal speeds before you get anywhere near the limit of the car and driving around at 6/10 it is impossible to learn anything worth while about performance driving. You never know the skill level of a new student and you really are putting your life in their hands as an instructor so planning for the worst case scenario is all you can do.
As long as you follow the rules, SDR puts on a great program and is a good organization to run with. If you don't like the rules, SDR is not the place to go as they have plenty of people that don't have a problem with turning you away in a less than diplomatic manner. They don't hold a grudge though and are some very nice and knowledgeable people if you stick around.
The AX program that SDR runs is more akin to a time attack at a track than they are to a parking lot AX. It is not uncommon to have almost 60mph average speeds and the fast cars topping out at 100mph on some courses, safety is a big concern as a number of cars have been crashed over the years. Off the top of my head, I remember a port a potty getting smashed, and a car going through a chain link fence and this is just at an AX. Stuff happens when you go fast and it is better you prepare for it than get hurt or worse yet sue PCA for allowing you to do something stupid. Prior to this year, you were required to attend 4 AX events before you could sign up for a DE or TT event. While safety is stressed, the instruction I have gotten and now give is more geared for going faster not simply navigating around the track. Mid corner at 120mph through Turn 8 at Willow Springs or 140+mph through Turn 1 at Cal Speedway is not the place to experience oversteer for the first time.
If you are an instructor, you know how scary it is to be in any car with a guy who doesn't know how to drive, let alone a GT3 or a 600+hp turbo. Some take to it quickly, some putter around at half throttle and you have to encourage them to push a little more but secretly fear that they will go off if they do, and then you have the ones that can't drive at all and are out of control from the word go. If you have to sit right seat in one of the latter cars, you will never ever question strict safety rules ever again. Sure it is the responsibility of the instructor to keep students roughly at the correct speed to skill ratio but in the newer cars, you have to be going at potentially lethal speeds before you get anywhere near the limit of the car and driving around at 6/10 it is impossible to learn anything worth while about performance driving. You never know the skill level of a new student and you really are putting your life in their hands as an instructor so planning for the worst case scenario is all you can do.
As long as you follow the rules, SDR puts on a great program and is a good organization to run with. If you don't like the rules, SDR is not the place to go as they have plenty of people that don't have a problem with turning you away in a less than diplomatic manner. They don't hold a grudge though and are some very nice and knowledgeable people if you stick around.
Last edited by Evan Fullerton; 01-16-2011 at 02:53 AM.
01-16-2011, 03:36 AM
#21
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Take the slowest Porsche out there, do some suspension mods, wheels & tires and a body kit that adds aero and now you need a roll bar, harness, seats and a HANS - for a DE?. Nice....
I'm a huge proponent of safety at these events but much like gov't with their over-legislation, they are focusing on the car and less about driver education and most importantly, driver attitude.
Let a newbie bring what they own and give them instruction. Trust your instructors to control the speed. If the driver isn't listening, kick him out! This is a dangerous hobby and **** can happen out there so proper driver attitude is mandatory and they must listen to the instructors. That isn't optional.
When you have a field of drivers with the right attitude, things will run much smoother with less carnage and less risk to your track day's insurance deductible. Get a bunch of cowboys out there with safety gear and they'll still end up in the wall.
01-16-2011, 05:04 AM
#22
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I'm a new member in zone 8 IE area. I'm a newbie to Pcars and I have yet to track my car in a DE. I do sponsor a race car that runs on an 1/8 mile track. Towards the end of last season we had a mechanical failure in the transmission at about 65mph. Big f-ing problem. Crash fire big mess. So I'm asking the question, could these rules be for safety regarding potential mechanical failures. I've also seen what appeared to be reasonable people do really stupid sh-t once they are out on the track.
I consider myself to be a competent driver fully capable of managing my vehicle (no mods). I have what would be considered a low budget 996TT with about 63K invested. If I'm told I have to add equipment for safety I would do it. If I crash my car I want the option of taking the bus home versus an ambulance.
I consider myself to be a competent driver fully capable of managing my vehicle (no mods). I have what would be considered a low budget 996TT with about 63K invested. If I'm told I have to add equipment for safety I would do it. If I crash my car I want the option of taking the bus home versus an ambulance.
01-16-2011, 05:08 AM
#23
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Stuff happens when you go fast and it is better you prepare for it than get hurt or worse yet sue PCA for allowing you to do something stupid.
if you would say "OK, everyone has to have full club racing level safety to be allowed at our DEs", I would understand. It would be shortsighted and you would be out of DE business in under a year, but I would not question your motives. You would be taking a stand on the side of safety and protecting your club from liability.
The situaiton that the club/region in question actually created does neither.
01-16-2011, 05:32 AM
#24
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Well that changed at some point and I guess I am not the only one that doesn't read/follow/agree with that rule as it is far from rigorously enforced in my experience or maybe nobody adds up the points correctly or... because making the change over at 9 points really is just stupid. The rule that is enforced is the seat, harness, roll bar, fire suit in the improved classes. Now that I went back and read the whole 6speed thing it sounds like the OP just stepped in the wrong persons Kool-Aid. I don't run with SDR all that often but they usually aren't so difficuly to deal with though they did come up with a stupid 20 year stock seat belt rule that got removed the next year I guess because someone finally saw the light.
This rule usually takes care of most of the older cars as far as meeting the letter of the rules at least with a loose interpretation and I have seen it put to use on a 964 turbo look NA 3.6L powered '68 912 at a SDR DE but the rules were never written for the newer cars so they don't fit quite as neatly. Zone 8 is throwing out the entire classing/rules system next year so hopefully they will un F it as it really is a mess as it stands now.
IV MODEL RANGES
Update/Backdate - Major assemblies such as engines, brakes, suspension or
transmissions may be substituted with parts from the same series car. Car series are
defined in the chart below. Cars that are updated or backdated shall have all major
assemblies updated and changed as a whole, or take the appropriate modification
points. In order to be eligible for this provision of the rules, the car as modified must
be functionally identical (mechanically, physically and aerodynamically) with the
model to which it has been updated or backdated. Under those circumstances, the
car is eligible to run in the same class as the model to which it has been modified to
match.
Examples:
• If a zero point 1973 911 E has all major assemblies converted to those of
a 911 T, than it may run as a zero point 911T (moving from class IS/S to
FS/S)
• A zero point 1973 911 E may convert some, but not all, major assemblies
to that of a 1973 911 T. It may then run as either a 911 E or 911 T,
taking the points for the converted assemblies if running as an E or taking
the points for the unconverted assemblies if running as a T.
• A modified 1973 911 E running in IM may recalculate its points as if it
was a 1973 911 T, moving it from class IM to the appropriate F or A
class for the resulting points total.
This rule usually takes care of most of the older cars as far as meeting the letter of the rules at least with a loose interpretation and I have seen it put to use on a 964 turbo look NA 3.6L powered '68 912 at a SDR DE but the rules were never written for the newer cars so they don't fit quite as neatly. Zone 8 is throwing out the entire classing/rules system next year so hopefully they will un F it as it really is a mess as it stands now.
IV MODEL RANGES
Update/Backdate - Major assemblies such as engines, brakes, suspension or
transmissions may be substituted with parts from the same series car. Car series are
defined in the chart below. Cars that are updated or backdated shall have all major
assemblies updated and changed as a whole, or take the appropriate modification
points. In order to be eligible for this provision of the rules, the car as modified must
be functionally identical (mechanically, physically and aerodynamically) with the
model to which it has been updated or backdated. Under those circumstances, the
car is eligible to run in the same class as the model to which it has been modified to
match.
Examples:
• If a zero point 1973 911 E has all major assemblies converted to those of
a 911 T, than it may run as a zero point 911T (moving from class IS/S to
FS/S)
• A zero point 1973 911 E may convert some, but not all, major assemblies
to that of a 1973 911 T. It may then run as either a 911 E or 911 T,
taking the points for the converted assemblies if running as an E or taking
the points for the unconverted assemblies if running as a T.
• A modified 1973 911 E running in IM may recalculate its points as if it
was a 1973 911 T, moving it from class IM to the appropriate F or A
class for the resulting points total.
01-16-2011, 07:24 AM
#25
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01-16-2011, 10:04 AM
#26
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>Assigning drivers to DE groups should be based on experience and horsepower.
>Consider adopting modified PCA Club Racing rules.
>Increasing numbers participate with higher horsepower cars, and are unqualified to do so.
>Consider adopting modified PCA Club Racing rules.
>Increasing numbers participate with higher horsepower cars, and are unqualified to do so.
01-16-2011, 02:10 PM
#27
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I just took a brief look at the Zone 8 document, and I'm plain dizzy.
I applaud efforts for safety improvement, but mod points are calculated regardless of model, correct?
So, throwing slicks and suspension/engine mods on a '73 911 could 'force' you into quite a few safety mods while somebody else could run a 400 hp 997-3 with stock seats and OEM belts?
I applaud efforts for safety improvement, but mod points are calculated regardless of model, correct?
So, throwing slicks and suspension/engine mods on a '73 911 could 'force' you into quite a few safety mods while somebody else could run a 400 hp 997-3 with stock seats and OEM belts?
01-16-2011, 04:59 PM
#28
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POC's semi annual Driver's Clinic is 2 weekend away at Streets of Willow. This is held in conjunction with our first DE event of the year. Read the info below if you're interested...
http://porscheownersclub.org/events/...E132-Info2.pdf
http://porscheownersclub.org/events/...E132-Info2.pdf
01-16-2011, 06:34 PM
#29
Volunteer organizations tend to attract 2 types of people in my experience. The vast majority are great people passionate about the organization and its activities. A small subset seem to derive a feeling of righteous superiority over others in the group. Often these people rise further in these organizations than they should simply because they are willing to commit more time and effort to the organization. All volunteer organizations are at risk for this. I remember a 30 minute wait in impound in 100 degree heat for a SCCA steward to show up to chew me out about undersized numbers on my formula atlantic (in a class of three). The amount of fury displayed about 6 inch instead of 8 inch numbers was impressive. There are frustrated assistant principals and ex drill sergants in a lot of organizations.
Last edited by prg; 01-17-2011 at 03:05 AM.
01-16-2011, 07:32 PM
#30
Volunteer organizations tend to attract 2 types of people in my experience. The vast majority are great people passionate about the organization and its activities. A small subset seem to derive a feeling of righteous superiority over others in the group. Often these people rise further in these organizations than they should simply because they are willing to commit more time and effort to the organization. All volunteer organizations are at risk for this. I remember a 30 minute wait in impound in 100 degree heat for a SCCA steward to show up to chew me out about undersized numbers on my formula atlantic (in a class of three). The amount of fury displayed about 6 inch instead of 8 inch numbers was impressive. There are frustrated assistant principals and ex drill sergants in a lot of organization.
The rule that says a stock 3 pt. belt is better than a 5 yr old harness was one of those silly rules and arbitratry.