wanna911

Not really, Webber handed him his behind quite a few times this season in qualy and race speed. And the Red Bulls are so much faster than everyone else it's hard to gauge who's the fastest driver. Red Bull front row what 80-90% of the races this year?

Vettel is in a tough situation, if he's selfish and think of his long term future, he will do whatever possible to make sure Webber doesn't win and enter next year as Red Bulls unspoken #1 as it would be hard for Red Bull not to give the WDC that opportunity were he to win it. Vettel is 14 points from Alonso, but only 7 from Webber and you can bet he at least wants to beat his teammate.

My guess is that Vettel will set a blistering pace in Qualifying and dash off at the beginning of the race to make sure the team can't issue team orders without it being obvious. Then he can have a chance to at least beat Webber. They can't stand each other and it's pretty obvious. I think Vettel would rather hell freeze over than to allow his teammate, who he doesn't like, to win WDC in an equal car.

All working right into Alonso's hand. For having the undisputed fastest car on the grid, with no peer, Webber and Vettel have squandered what should have been a blowout. Though Vettel's had what 3 failures this year?

Nizer

I don't get the fuss re: team orders. F1 has always been a team sport and team orders have existed going all the way back beyond Fangio and Collins. The challenge for a team principle is deciding who to bet on when you have two well matched drivers. Massa and Alonso is straightforward; Vettel and Webber not so much.

Very entertaining race and kudos to the RBR boys for getting it done. Nice driving by Alonso to massively outclass Massa in what should've been his best drive of the year. Another solid drive by Rosberg moving up seven places from grid and outclassing Schumacher once again despite having to stop twice for wheel problems. Looking forward to Abu Dhabi.

multi21

First, Vettel has beaten Webber in the last 5 races. Second, Vettel is 15 points behind Alonso and Webber is 8. That is significant as even if Webber won the next race and Alonso came in 2nd, Alonso would win the WDC. If it was 7, they would be tied and the next tie breaker is race wins which (If Webber wins in Abu Dhabi, both would be tied with 5 wins). Ironically, if Vettel wins the next one, he also would have 5 races wins.

Vettel seems to be very good at new tracks as he won last year at Abu Dhabi and I imagine will be hard to beat again this year considering he is on a roll. Red Bull really have to examine themselves at this point. It's clear Vettel is their #1, but Webber is in the best spot to win a WDC.

I'm sure Christian Horner has already thought about the possibility of Webber brake checking Alonso and sending them both out of the race gifting the title to Vettel, but that's too far out out there, isn't it?

ltc

IIRC, later in that same interview, he went on to say (and I paraphrase) "not until one driver is mathematically eliminated will the team favor one driver over another"

If RBR was going to issue "team orders", this past GP was the opportunity.

Mathematically, it made sense for Vettel to allow Webber to "pass", thus still assuring a 1-2 finish for clinching the Constructors' title and putting Webber in a better position for the WDC while still keeping Vettel mathematically alive in the WDC.

The fact that they didn't is astonishing. I suppose it could be viewed in 2 distinct ways:

1. they are true to their word, do not have a #1 driver (until one is mathematically eliminated)
or
2. they are indirectly favoring Vettel, since he is a longer term asset for RBR

What is certain is that Ferrari would never have done what RBR didn't do this weekend (assuming both Ferrari drivers were in the same positions as both RBR drivers); I believe past Ferrari history and public statements corroborates that assumption.

agdamis

If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck Lewis, It's a bloody duck!


http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=49628

multi21

Is this your first Rodeo? Your hate makes you deaf too? Didn't you hear the broadcast yesterday? Schumacher let Rosberg have the position in front of him because he was on fresh tires and had a better chance to pass Button and gain valuable constructor points which equal $$$. Honestly, you will just throw any **** on the wall to see what sticks. It's called team player...

Schumacher yields to Rosberg in closing stages
7 November 2010
Michael Schumacher may have finished seventh on his race return to Interlagos although the seven-time World Champion – who has won at the Brazilian track on four separate occasions in the past – lost significant time due to a variety of reasons on Sunday, eventually allowing team-mate Nico Rosberg to pass.

Eighth on the grid behind Robert Kubica’s Renault, Schumacher’s first issues arrived just seconds after the race began.





Lap 3: Schumacher seizes ninth place from the McLaren of Jenson Button at Turn 1“I had quite a good start today, gaining two positions which unfortunately I lost again directly afterwards following my exit onto the grass because of the fight with Robert,” the German explained.

“We then had good pace but, with hindsight, my pit-stop was maybe a little too early and left me stuck behind Adrian (Sutil). Towards the end, I let Nico past when he was on fresh tyres as he had the better chance to fight Jenson (Button) in front of us.

“I look forward to Abu Dhabi now where I hope to have another encouraging race.”

wanna911

Counting a race where Webber crashed and Vettel blew up as beating someone is hilarious at best.

Even still, that's not what I was responding to. Webber had a streak going of 4 of 5 poles in 5 races. He was handing Vettel his behind for several races in a row, and that's when things started going bad for Vettel. So no, he has not been the fastest ALL year, he hasn't even been fastest on his team all year. And I'm sure you know there are a few drivers on the grid that would have challenged him more than Webber. So to declare him fastest DRIVER all year would be incorrect as that would be nearly impossible to do anyways with NO cars being equal to the Red Bulls hardly ever, and even then good drivers, in lesser equipment than even the big three. Rosberg,Kubica,Sutil etc.

It's likely the only ones that could challenge Vettel on pure speed alone are Hamilton, Alonso and possibly Kubica, but unless they are paired in equal equipment, there is no way to tell.


You then proceed to agree with me while acting like you disagree. Vettel being good at new tracks is only going to fuel his desire to beat Webber. If Vettel is winning then Alonso must come in 5th for him to have a chance. That's not all that far fetched. The good thing for Red Bull is that they will likely know by the end of lap 1 if Vettel has a chance. If Alonso is in the top 3 forgetaboutit. He'd better be 6th or 7th and even then, you're still playing with fire considering there aren't 5 cars faster than his. So they'd need to pull the switch early if Vettel is ahead.

multi21

Dez, where did I say Vettel was faster all year? I'm pointing out the last 5 races which count more than the first 5. Look at Alonso at the beginning of the year, he and his car are clearly faster now which is what counts.

And I do count the Korea DNFs as part of the last 5 races, because

1. Vettel out qualified Webber and was leading the race.
2. Webber crashed out on his own while in 2nd place. Vettel's engine blew up while leading confortably. If that is not a major fail by Webber then I don't know what is. If Webber keeps it on the Island, he is NOW leading the WDC instead of Alonso. That is just basic math.

At this point Webber is begging his team to support him. If he doesn't crash, he doesn't have to.

M758

I will say this. Red Bull is getting as much or even MORE attention, but NOT forcing Vettel to give way. Sponsors want their names in the news and excitment and drama. Well all eyes will be on RED BULL next weekend. Alonso may win a WDC, but he has been marginalized. The talk is not Alonso and Ferrari winning, but "WHAT WILL RED BULL DO?" Masterfull marketing really.

Also. If Webber pops a motor at the next race Red Bull will need Vettel to score as many points as possible. I can see situation where Vettel's win this week is key should Webber falter next week. Both Vettel and Webber have been strong this year. Raw speed edge goes to Vettel, but only just. Luck more than anything has put both drivers in this position. The Red Bull plan all year was to "let them race". Sometimes it has hurt, but with both drivers so equal in points and performance it hard to hold back one driver.

Nizer

So taking away Schumacher's one "gifted" place to Rosberg's six "earned" spots equals Schumacher having a much better race than Rosberg. Interesting.

adrial

All true ... Red Bull is certainly a master of marketing.

Ritter v4.0

A couple of good passes (on slower cars generally) but as usual the drama in F1 is off, not on, the track.
Even at Interlagos where passing is more than theoretically possible, the race was more follow the leader. Any given Sunday definitely does not refer to F1 these days. Rather, Sat's quali is where the on track exists from time to time.

Unless it rains, the races have become very predictable. Think about it; this is one of the most exciting seasons of late, but remind me when any of the top five had a dice on the track with each other that lasted beyond one corner (if that).

I don't know how, but F1 and "racing" need to be merged again.
Min-rant over. (Yes- I'll be watching next w/e.)

George from MD

Just curious- how many points would Alonso have had Massa not rolled over for him this season?
How many points would Webber have if Vettel had?

jbossolo

+1 Million!

"Horner was extremely critical of Ferrari's use of team orders at Hockenheim and has always been adamant that that Red Bull will not employ such tactics."

And that is exactly why Alonso, in a lesser car, will probably win the WDC.
In my opinion Red Bull takes the prize for the worst managed sports organization in history! They have the fastest car by a longshot (depending on track configuration, as much as 1 second/lap faster than the next faster car), two excellent drivers, and they just failed to make a team decision (favor Webber by allowing him to pass Vettel) that would have given them a good fighting chance at the driver's championship, instead focusing on winning the manufacturer's championship.

Ray S

Agreed and it shows me that Horner et al are either

1) So smitten with Vettel that they can't think straight

Or

2) Strategically inept and out of their depth swimming in the deep end of the pool with the likes of Ferrari and McLaren