A Cup Car for the street?
01-06-2010, 09:56 PM
#31
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I'd think that once you rebuild a Cup engine and gearbox your cost theory will fail. Plus by the time you neuter the 996 Cup with street-able alignment and suspension settings, clutch, tires that can make it to and from the track, you really aren't all that much faster than a street car, especially a well set up one.
Just my opinion. Don't know how far you plan on traveling to the track.
Just my opinion. Don't know how far you plan on traveling to the track.
01-06-2010, 10:40 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Rob, Good luck with your quest. Let us know of the outcome. I don't think you will get it legal road going. I think if driving a cup is what you want then your going to have to budget towing it someway to the track.
01-06-2010, 11:08 PM
#33
996 street car minus interior, glass side (and rear?) windows, steror , climate control, etc, plus full cage, aggressive LSD, cup rear toe link and cup lower control arms, and early cup take-off dampers, springs, sway bars equals cup car performance given equal tires. No way that's anything even close to $60-80k in modifications to the street car. Bring me a 996GT3 street car and $40k and I'll show you while pocketing a hefty profit for myself.
Cup car can't legally be registered on the street. Perhaps you could get away with it in some places, but it wouldn't be legal.
Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
Joe
Cup car can't legally be registered on the street. Perhaps you could get away with it in some places, but it wouldn't be legal.
Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
Joe
01-07-2010, 03:56 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
Put another way, and in local speak, if I want a car that will run 2:00 at Thunderhill but still has to be street legal and cost ~$60-70K, one of the last places I'll look is to slow down a 1:50 capable racer just so I could drive it to and from the track.
01-07-2010, 08:23 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
Charlie,
Very interesting. Thank you for your response.
I've heard about this exemption, but I've never actually seen the paperwork you describe. It raises a few questions in my mind.
When you imported your 964 Cup (when was that, by the way?), were you required to sign this exemption by the EPA before you could take delivery of the car? Do you have a copy of that document? If/when you sell the car, are you required to notify the EPA of the sale, or is just in your best interest to do so (so as to avoid a penalty if the next owner tries to register it)? I assume if you sell the car, the new owner should get a copy of that paperwork. Does the new owner then carry the liablity for that fine? Do they have to sign somewhere that they'll abide by that rule?
I wonder if the EPA could be approached to reconsider this restriction. I realize it's a big organization, and I'm not sure how you'd go about it, but it seems to me that it would be very possible to make the car comply with applicable emission standards without much (if any) work. 996 Cup Cars come with catalytic converters anyway, and they run on unleaded fuel. To my knowledge, they're likely to be able to pass a practical smog test. Not sure about vapor recovery from the fuel tank, though. I don't know about 964 Cups, but I bet they could be catalytic equipped too, and that fuel tank venting could be handled easily. It seems logical that if you could show the EPA that the car is emissions compliant, even though it wasn't imported with such certification, that they might consider waiving that rule. After all, the car would then comply with the spirit of the law, which is emission control. But to get someone to approve it might be a nightmare.
I'm not interested in breaking the law at all -- I'm just interested if there's a legal means for getting such a car registered. Even though it's a federal requirement, I'm not sure how such a rule can get enforced, because the registration process is done on the state level. I called the Washington Department of Licensing (DOL) today, and they said I had to talk to the State Patrol, which handles inspections of cars coming into the state. I'll find out more tomorrow, but it sounds like the WSP isn't likely to ask for EPA paperwork or proof of emission certification. They're only interested in seeing that the car is "street legal" and that the VIN matches whatever paperwork accompanies the car (like the title). My impression is that if there's no title (and there wouldn't be for a race car), then as long as the car has lights, bumpers, a horn and such (not sure exactly what's needed, and the devil may be in the details here), then they declare it legal and send you back to the DOL to register the car. Even without a title, the DOL can then issue a registration for the car in a category called "ownership in doubt" for three years, while a title is created. Meanwhile, the car has a license plate and is legal, buy the title takes three years to be issued.
Clearly, you wouldn't want to get fined by the EPA, but I'm not sure at what stage the existence of that exemption would show up. How would it get discovered? Do you suppose that if the State Patrol ran the VIN, there's some message in the system from the EPA? I'll check further and report back.
Rob
Very interesting. Thank you for your response.
I've heard about this exemption, but I've never actually seen the paperwork you describe. It raises a few questions in my mind.
When you imported your 964 Cup (when was that, by the way?), were you required to sign this exemption by the EPA before you could take delivery of the car? Do you have a copy of that document? If/when you sell the car, are you required to notify the EPA of the sale, or is just in your best interest to do so (so as to avoid a penalty if the next owner tries to register it)? I assume if you sell the car, the new owner should get a copy of that paperwork. Does the new owner then carry the liablity for that fine? Do they have to sign somewhere that they'll abide by that rule?
I wonder if the EPA could be approached to reconsider this restriction. I realize it's a big organization, and I'm not sure how you'd go about it, but it seems to me that it would be very possible to make the car comply with applicable emission standards without much (if any) work. 996 Cup Cars come with catalytic converters anyway, and they run on unleaded fuel. To my knowledge, they're likely to be able to pass a practical smog test. Not sure about vapor recovery from the fuel tank, though. I don't know about 964 Cups, but I bet they could be catalytic equipped too, and that fuel tank venting could be handled easily. It seems logical that if you could show the EPA that the car is emissions compliant, even though it wasn't imported with such certification, that they might consider waiving that rule. After all, the car would then comply with the spirit of the law, which is emission control. But to get someone to approve it might be a nightmare.
I'm not interested in breaking the law at all -- I'm just interested if there's a legal means for getting such a car registered. Even though it's a federal requirement, I'm not sure how such a rule can get enforced, because the registration process is done on the state level. I called the Washington Department of Licensing (DOL) today, and they said I had to talk to the State Patrol, which handles inspections of cars coming into the state. I'll find out more tomorrow, but it sounds like the WSP isn't likely to ask for EPA paperwork or proof of emission certification. They're only interested in seeing that the car is "street legal" and that the VIN matches whatever paperwork accompanies the car (like the title). My impression is that if there's no title (and there wouldn't be for a race car), then as long as the car has lights, bumpers, a horn and such (not sure exactly what's needed, and the devil may be in the details here), then they declare it legal and send you back to the DOL to register the car. Even without a title, the DOL can then issue a registration for the car in a category called "ownership in doubt" for three years, while a title is created. Meanwhile, the car has a license plate and is legal, buy the title takes three years to be issued.
Clearly, you wouldn't want to get fined by the EPA, but I'm not sure at what stage the existence of that exemption would show up. How would it get discovered? Do you suppose that if the State Patrol ran the VIN, there's some message in the system from the EPA? I'll check further and report back.
Rob
1) I imported my car in 2006
2) You need both the EPA and DOT to agree to importing the car under the race car exemption. The DOT will not move without the EPA's agreement first.
3) Yes, I have the EPA and DOT paperwork.
4) I am required to notify the EPA, but I don't think I would get in trouble if I didn't unless some subsequent owner tried to register it.
5) Yes, the new owner is supposed to carry the liability of the fine. I haven't looked at the paperwork in a while, but I think they need to register with the EPA that they are the owner. If I sell the car, I'd have as part of the Bill of Sale that the buyer acknowledges that I have told them the requirement to register their ownership with the EPA. I don't want $25k surprises.
Note that this isn't just an emissions issue. You have all the DOT regs: no rollcages, lights need to comply (likely not a big deal, but my 964 Cup does not have a 3rd brake light, for example), seats would need to be changed, etc. GT3 Cups don't have doorbars, you'd have to ditch the doors, blah blah... So although states do the registrations, the Fed also sets these rules. I suspect a state wouldn't register a car without the appropriate paperwork from the EPA and DOT which would be nary impossible to get on a Cup of any vintage.
01-07-2010, 01:02 PM
#36
Pro
Thread Starter
Charlie,
Thank you. I appreciate that you responded with actual findings that address the question I posed. Your experience will be valuable to others who, in the future, may search the archives with the same questions I have, whether it relates to a Cup Car or not.
If I go further with this, I will start by studying the documents that accompany a Cup Car. The specific wording of those papers may be revealing -- I think it's odd that the owner (or former owner) carries the risk. That would be very difficult to enforce if the car changed hands three times, and the newest owner had not received the papers. I would think if there was a legal dispute, the courts would see the state as being the gatekeeper -- whatever agency is most responsible for allowing the car to be registered; I don't think that liability could be imposed on a former owner who inadvertently neglected to notify the EPA of the sale or the next owner(s) of the law. That said, I don't know if I'd want to press the issue.
I know from first-hand experience that legal importation and registration of a street car from another country can be a very individual consideration, often subject to the whims, knowledge, and mood of a single state inspector somewhere in the chain. It just has to pass that one person -- whether it met the letter of the law or not. Once it's past that person, then it's in -- for good, legally, fair and square. In this state, at least, once it has a title, there's no further inspection or scrutiny except the smog check.
So there are two levels of concern: the first is assessing whether there would be any real liability for attempting to regsiter the car, the next would be assessing the likelihood of actually getting it past the inspection. Sounds like a dim chance of success, but I'll continue to give it some thought.
Rob
Thank you. I appreciate that you responded with actual findings that address the question I posed. Your experience will be valuable to others who, in the future, may search the archives with the same questions I have, whether it relates to a Cup Car or not.
If I go further with this, I will start by studying the documents that accompany a Cup Car. The specific wording of those papers may be revealing -- I think it's odd that the owner (or former owner) carries the risk. That would be very difficult to enforce if the car changed hands three times, and the newest owner had not received the papers. I would think if there was a legal dispute, the courts would see the state as being the gatekeeper -- whatever agency is most responsible for allowing the car to be registered; I don't think that liability could be imposed on a former owner who inadvertently neglected to notify the EPA of the sale or the next owner(s) of the law. That said, I don't know if I'd want to press the issue.
I know from first-hand experience that legal importation and registration of a street car from another country can be a very individual consideration, often subject to the whims, knowledge, and mood of a single state inspector somewhere in the chain. It just has to pass that one person -- whether it met the letter of the law or not. Once it's past that person, then it's in -- for good, legally, fair and square. In this state, at least, once it has a title, there's no further inspection or scrutiny except the smog check.
So there are two levels of concern: the first is assessing whether there would be any real liability for attempting to regsiter the car, the next would be assessing the likelihood of actually getting it past the inspection. Sounds like a dim chance of success, but I'll continue to give it some thought.
Rob
01-07-2010, 09:30 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
I know from first-hand experience that legal importation and registration of a street car from another country can be a very individual consideration, often subject to the whims, knowledge, and mood of a single state inspector somewhere in the chain. It just has to pass that one person -- whether it met the letter of the law or not. Once it's past that person, then it's in -- for good, legally, fair and square. In this state, at least, once it has a title, there's no further inspection or scrutiny except the smog check.
So there are two levels of concern: the first is assessing whether there would be any real liability for attempting to regsiter the car, the next would be assessing the likelihood of actually getting it past the inspection. Sounds like a dim chance of success, but I'll continue to give it some thought.
Rob
So there are two levels of concern: the first is assessing whether there would be any real liability for attempting to regsiter the car, the next would be assessing the likelihood of actually getting it past the inspection. Sounds like a dim chance of success, but I'll continue to give it some thought.
Rob
"This will respond to your letter to EPA regarding your racing vehicle. Based on the information you have presented to us, EPA has granted a racing exclusion for your vehicle which will be effective after you sign the statement below and return this letter to us. You must also attach a copy of this signed statement to each EPA entry form 3520-1 which you present to U.S. Customs. Because your vehicle has received this racing exclusion, it may not be registered or licensed for use on, or operated on, public roads or highways. Any person or company that modifies a racing vehicle for street usage could be considered a manufacturer of a new motor vehicle, and subject to civil penalties of up to $27,500 per vehicle for the introduction into commerce of a new motor vehicle that has not been certified by EPA to conform to Federal emission requirements.
If you sell this vehicle, you must inform the buyer of this racing exclusion and of the prohibition on registering or licensing this vehicle for street use. You must also inform EPA of the sale and provide us the name and address of the buyer. BEcause EPA maintains records of racing exclusions granted, failure to update your records with us upon the sale of this vehicle could cause you difficulties for you if the buyer improperly converts this vehicle for street use."
01-07-2010, 10:02 PM
#38
Pro
Thread Starter
Charlie,
A very interesting read. Sounds rather ominous and forbidding, but I still wonder how or whether the dots would ever get connected between the race car owner (or subsequent owner) attempting street registration and the EPA, US Customs, DOT, or whoever would wield the penalty for such a violation. And I still find it incredible that a signature on that document would carry such potential liability to the owner (or former owner) for an attempt at street registration. But I wouldn't want to mess with the risk of a big fine, and your information shows that it would be prudent to proceed very carefully.
Thanks again.
Rob
P.S. Can any Cup Car owners confirm whether they have received and signed papers like this?
A very interesting read. Sounds rather ominous and forbidding, but I still wonder how or whether the dots would ever get connected between the race car owner (or subsequent owner) attempting street registration and the EPA, US Customs, DOT, or whoever would wield the penalty for such a violation. And I still find it incredible that a signature on that document would carry such potential liability to the owner (or former owner) for an attempt at street registration. But I wouldn't want to mess with the risk of a big fine, and your information shows that it would be prudent to proceed very carefully.
Thanks again.
Rob
P.S. Can any Cup Car owners confirm whether they have received and signed papers like this?
01-08-2010, 12:10 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Thanks folks,
Steve, now that *is* creative. Of course, getting that dealer plate would be a big deal. And I'm not sure what the local constabulary would say if they saw you driving near PIR, with numbers on the doors, rubber boogers on the hood and sweaty helmet hanging from the hook inside the car. "Just taking it for a test drive, sir, and I got lost on this endless loop with a bunch of crazies going 140 mph..."
Seriously, I'm sure that a Cup Car, as configured, would not be legal anywhere as is. But I do wonder whether there might be some routine, perhaps unique to certain states, where the process of applying for a title might be (more)possible for a race car. Cup Cars are relatively unique because they're so close to "street legal" as delivered, at least as far as basic equipment is concerned. The problem is they haven't been proven to meet federal safety standards, so they'd never get approved en masse like their street-titled brethren. But there are execeptions, arent' there? I know that "kit cars" or "partially assembled" vehicles have special exemptions from the FMVSS, but maybe only for "manufacturers." I wonder if the drivetrain could be separated from the car, the chassis re-classified somehow, then the components re-united later. A few years ago there was a one-time exemption for importing a car that wasn't otherwise US legal. I'm not sure that's in effect anymore, but there were a number of street-marginal cars that came over at that time.
So the concept of titling a marginally street legal car has been successfully executed many times in the past, perhaps in various ways. Why not a Cup Car?
Practical? That's another whole thread...
Yes, that would be the logical answer. And it would be entirely legal, as long as the donor tub was legitimately titled. But then it becomes a question of whether you've converted a Cup Car to a GT3, or a GT3 to a Cup Car! And it would likely be a very expensive and labor intensive process.
No, this wouldn't be for financing!
I knew this would come up: "Why the hell would anyone want to do this?"
To all those who question the practicality of driving such a car on the street: there's no question that there's nothing practical or logical about it. It's only for the sport of being able to drive to the track, do some lapping, and drive home again. For me, the hassle of a trailer and tow vehicle is enough to stop me from having a pure track vehicle. What I drive right now would be considered impractical and marginally streetable, so I'm used to the concept.
Though even a Cup Car on the street would have to be compromised slightly to get to/from the track on its own (tires, ride height, side windows, maybe clutch, muffler, steering gear), it would be still retain more purity than most street cars converted for the track. And there are lots of older Cup Cars with significant life left in some of them that have come way down in price. We'll be seeing them at DE days more and more, I predict.
I do have this question, though, for the Cup Car experts: what is the fundamental difference between the race and street engines that drives the 100hour recommendation before rebuild on the race engine? I know of some mechanical differences between the Cup engine and a street GT3 engine, and in fact, the street engine is somewhat more complex. Of course, the Cup engine is expected to spend the majority of its life in harsher racing duty. But there's no such rebuild requirement for a street GT3 engine. And many of them are run nearly as hard, but for thousands of hours. Is there something in the bottom or top end of a Cup engine that's more fragile?
I asked this of a PMNA mechanic who was doing a demo rebuild of Cup engines at the Monterey historics this past August, and even he said he didn't know the answer to this question...
Rob
Steve, now that *is* creative. Of course, getting that dealer plate would be a big deal. And I'm not sure what the local constabulary would say if they saw you driving near PIR, with numbers on the doors, rubber boogers on the hood and sweaty helmet hanging from the hook inside the car. "Just taking it for a test drive, sir, and I got lost on this endless loop with a bunch of crazies going 140 mph..."
Seriously, I'm sure that a Cup Car, as configured, would not be legal anywhere as is. But I do wonder whether there might be some routine, perhaps unique to certain states, where the process of applying for a title might be (more)possible for a race car. Cup Cars are relatively unique because they're so close to "street legal" as delivered, at least as far as basic equipment is concerned. The problem is they haven't been proven to meet federal safety standards, so they'd never get approved en masse like their street-titled brethren. But there are execeptions, arent' there? I know that "kit cars" or "partially assembled" vehicles have special exemptions from the FMVSS, but maybe only for "manufacturers." I wonder if the drivetrain could be separated from the car, the chassis re-classified somehow, then the components re-united later. A few years ago there was a one-time exemption for importing a car that wasn't otherwise US legal. I'm not sure that's in effect anymore, but there were a number of street-marginal cars that came over at that time.
So the concept of titling a marginally street legal car has been successfully executed many times in the past, perhaps in various ways. Why not a Cup Car?
Practical? That's another whole thread...
Yes, that would be the logical answer. And it would be entirely legal, as long as the donor tub was legitimately titled. But then it becomes a question of whether you've converted a Cup Car to a GT3, or a GT3 to a Cup Car! And it would likely be a very expensive and labor intensive process.
No, this wouldn't be for financing!
I knew this would come up: "Why the hell would anyone want to do this?"
To all those who question the practicality of driving such a car on the street: there's no question that there's nothing practical or logical about it. It's only for the sport of being able to drive to the track, do some lapping, and drive home again. For me, the hassle of a trailer and tow vehicle is enough to stop me from having a pure track vehicle. What I drive right now would be considered impractical and marginally streetable, so I'm used to the concept.
Though even a Cup Car on the street would have to be compromised slightly to get to/from the track on its own (tires, ride height, side windows, maybe clutch, muffler, steering gear), it would be still retain more purity than most street cars converted for the track. And there are lots of older Cup Cars with significant life left in some of them that have come way down in price. We'll be seeing them at DE days more and more, I predict.
I do have this question, though, for the Cup Car experts: what is the fundamental difference between the race and street engines that drives the 100hour recommendation before rebuild on the race engine? I know of some mechanical differences between the Cup engine and a street GT3 engine, and in fact, the street engine is somewhat more complex. Of course, the Cup engine is expected to spend the majority of its life in harsher racing duty. But there's no such rebuild requirement for a street GT3 engine. And many of them are run nearly as hard, but for thousands of hours. Is there something in the bottom or top end of a Cup engine that's more fragile?
I asked this of a PMNA mechanic who was doing a demo rebuild of Cup engines at the Monterey historics this past August, and even he said he didn't know the answer to this question...
Rob
Nothing as cool as driving to the track, giving my wheels to the Dunlop boys to put slicks on, winning a race vs boys in 18 wheeler rigs, changing the tyres on the one set of rim and driving the car back on the M25!!!!
I'll always regret selling that car - I did get a 996 RSR to replace it.. and that needed 4 mechanics and trucks to keep it going!
01-08-2010, 12:14 AM
#40
Rob,
Since you are in WA state, have you looked into the 3-day trip or transport permits? When I was looking into buying a F Challenge car a few years back, I investigated them and I seem to remember open wording on its use. I heard of somebody who drove a factory Lotus race car to/from the track using such a permit.
Also, another consideration are the earlier 944 Cups i.e. real Turbo Cups or Rothmans Challenge Cups. Although not as common (or popular) as the Carrera Cups or GT3 Cups, they are still factory Cup cars. These cars have 17 digit production car VINs, which makes getting them street legal easier. This is what I ended up doing. Even PCNA was very helpful in providing the proper paperwork for me to import the car into the US.
Since you are in WA state, have you looked into the 3-day trip or transport permits? When I was looking into buying a F Challenge car a few years back, I investigated them and I seem to remember open wording on its use. I heard of somebody who drove a factory Lotus race car to/from the track using such a permit.
Also, another consideration are the earlier 944 Cups i.e. real Turbo Cups or Rothmans Challenge Cups. Although not as common (or popular) as the Carrera Cups or GT3 Cups, they are still factory Cup cars. These cars have 17 digit production car VINs, which makes getting them street legal easier. This is what I ended up doing. Even PCNA was very helpful in providing the proper paperwork for me to import the car into the US.
01-08-2010, 12:53 AM
#41
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I'm almost positive the VIN on a Cup car is going to actually show up in the database that all the states use as non-registerable. And all you'll have is an MSO, not a title.
There's no way, in any state, to legally turn that VIN and those docs into a title. The reason is because those items are CREATED to make sure you DON'T do this. Otherwise they'd just let Porsche or whoever sell these things with no VIN on them at all. I mean if they aren't going to hit the street, why have one otherwise? It might as well be a hammer at that point.
But you're not thinking right. You can do it illegally with the donor tub and swapping the VIN plates. I'm sure you've thought of that and want a better way. I'm afraid the only actual better way is to look into your state's kit car registration laws. There will be a set of requirements for what YOU have to have done to it. Often "kit" cars require donors that were formerly street legal, including as much as an entire chassis, in fact. Yet you are registering a "new" vehicle and getting a "new" title and a state-assigned VIN. So find out what those requirements are in your state and see if you can make that work. It will require some amount of dissassembly of your new Cup Car. It might require a small fib that you built it on a body in white (which won't have a VIN, but isn't outside the spirit of the law, IMHO). Or you may just have to have put the engine and transmission in yourself. Or they may have to come from a different source, in which case you buy the Cup car chassis from the seller and the engine/tranny from his wife (including throwing them a few bones for separating the two for you). Then you take some pics of you tightening the motor mount bolts yourself, show the two separate receipts, and you get your kit car title.
I *know* things have been done like that in other states. Not necessarily with a Cup car, but with similar stuff.
That's all assuming the seller doesn't make you sign that EPA doc that says you won't try to license this thing.
I very much plan to license my 917K replica for street use. I have a kit car MSO, though, and obviously the thing doesn't have a VIN that sits in a database that says "don't do that", too.
--Donnie
There's no way, in any state, to legally turn that VIN and those docs into a title. The reason is because those items are CREATED to make sure you DON'T do this. Otherwise they'd just let Porsche or whoever sell these things with no VIN on them at all. I mean if they aren't going to hit the street, why have one otherwise? It might as well be a hammer at that point.
But you're not thinking right. You can do it illegally with the donor tub and swapping the VIN plates. I'm sure you've thought of that and want a better way. I'm afraid the only actual better way is to look into your state's kit car registration laws. There will be a set of requirements for what YOU have to have done to it. Often "kit" cars require donors that were formerly street legal, including as much as an entire chassis, in fact. Yet you are registering a "new" vehicle and getting a "new" title and a state-assigned VIN. So find out what those requirements are in your state and see if you can make that work. It will require some amount of dissassembly of your new Cup Car. It might require a small fib that you built it on a body in white (which won't have a VIN, but isn't outside the spirit of the law, IMHO). Or you may just have to have put the engine and transmission in yourself. Or they may have to come from a different source, in which case you buy the Cup car chassis from the seller and the engine/tranny from his wife (including throwing them a few bones for separating the two for you). Then you take some pics of you tightening the motor mount bolts yourself, show the two separate receipts, and you get your kit car title.
I *know* things have been done like that in other states. Not necessarily with a Cup car, but with similar stuff.
That's all assuming the seller doesn't make you sign that EPA doc that says you won't try to license this thing.
I very much plan to license my 917K replica for street use. I have a kit car MSO, though, and obviously the thing doesn't have a VIN that sits in a database that says "don't do that", too.
--Donnie
01-08-2010, 02:47 AM
#42
Rob,
With all due respect, I started down this road with a factory 964 Cup, and ultimately had to pull the plug because, even with several folks willing to 'help', there was going to be no way to be able to drive a factory race car (especially one built as a 'Euro' version) on the street.
In considering your earlier comments, I encourage you to take some time to seriously evaluate what you want to do with said car. If you plan to haul it around on a trailer, then perhaps there's no issue; but if you ever plan to take it for a blast in the country (which I do on a regular basis), you may find you've made a big mistake when the state police impound the vehicle - permanently - and assess a fine that would make anyone's head spin (the $25K number has been batted around many times).
FWIW, folks like me, who choose to convert street cars to racing status, may do so specifically because we HAVE considered the financial options...
Regards,
Dave
With all due respect, I started down this road with a factory 964 Cup, and ultimately had to pull the plug because, even with several folks willing to 'help', there was going to be no way to be able to drive a factory race car (especially one built as a 'Euro' version) on the street.
In considering your earlier comments, I encourage you to take some time to seriously evaluate what you want to do with said car. If you plan to haul it around on a trailer, then perhaps there's no issue; but if you ever plan to take it for a blast in the country (which I do on a regular basis), you may find you've made a big mistake when the state police impound the vehicle - permanently - and assess a fine that would make anyone's head spin (the $25K number has been batted around many times).
FWIW, folks like me, who choose to convert street cars to racing status, may do so specifically because we HAVE considered the financial options...
Regards,
Dave
01-09-2010, 01:13 PM
#44
A few years back, I thought I'd like to find an early 355 challenge car that could be street registered (1995), and have a cool hotrod street and track prepared track car. Having lived with my cup for a while now, I think that idea is crazy, and am glad I didn't go thru with it. My old 993 RS clone even became less fun to drive on the street, and it's nowhere near as uncompromising as a cup. Unfortunately, finding someone to give you a cup to try out is almost impossible, but I think once you stepped out and finished your project, you'd regret it. There are so many expensive and specific parts for this car that you don't pay attention to until you're immersed in it, that I would think it a nightmare for street use, let alone considering the characteristics that make it a terrific race car. I'd get a GT3 and hotrod it. It would be a lot less expensive. Remember, a low purchase price for a cup in need is just the beginning;-). I know 8 guys who have built extreme street track car, and they've all been sold, or are up for sale, so the person that can enjoy/tolerate such a thing is rare. Heck, I even thought I would enjoy it. It's your money to play with, just think it through. Good luck!
01-09-2010, 01:56 PM
#45
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Rennlist Member
If you are completely set on driving a race car on the street, go 964 US Cup or as Dave mentioned a F355 or F348 Challenge car. Forget about all other versions of the Cup. Too much $$$ and by the time you actually put it on the street, it's been brutally bastardized.
