A Cup Car for the street?
01-05-2010, 09:07 PM
#16
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I knew this would come up: "Why the hell would anyone want to do this?"
To all those who question the practicality of driving such a car on the street: there's no question that there's nothing practical or logical about it. It's only for the sport of being able to drive to the track, do some lapping, and drive home again. For me, the hassle of a trailer and tow vehicle is enough to stop me from having a pure track vehicle. What I drive right now would be considered impractical and marginally streetable, so I'm used to the concept.
Though even a Cup Car on the street would have to be compromised slightly to get to/from the track on its own (tires, ride height, side windows, maybe clutch, muffler, steering gear), it would be still retain more purity than most street cars converted for the track. And there are lots of older Cup Cars with significant life left in some of them that have come way down in price. We'll be seeing them at DE days more and more, I predict.
Rob
To all those who question the practicality of driving such a car on the street: there's no question that there's nothing practical or logical about it. It's only for the sport of being able to drive to the track, do some lapping, and drive home again. For me, the hassle of a trailer and tow vehicle is enough to stop me from having a pure track vehicle. What I drive right now would be considered impractical and marginally streetable, so I'm used to the concept.
Though even a Cup Car on the street would have to be compromised slightly to get to/from the track on its own (tires, ride height, side windows, maybe clutch, muffler, steering gear), it would be still retain more purity than most street cars converted for the track. And there are lots of older Cup Cars with significant life left in some of them that have come way down in price. We'll be seeing them at DE days more and more, I predict.
Rob
If you do that it's pretty much just a GT3 with a cage in it, why not just buy a 996 GT3?
You talk about the price of them coming down, how much do you think converting all of the aforementioned parts will be? Not cheap, that's for sure.
I'm sure someone has gutted a 996 GT3 and overmodded it but is still streetable and would fit your needs perfectly. Trying to make a cup streetable is going to cost quite a bit.
01-05-2010, 09:11 PM
#17
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Rob, unfortunately, I cannot answer any of your questions . . . and to make matters worse . . . I have yet another question. For anyone who drives a race car on the street, do you have any liability insurance coverage?
Jeff
Jeff
01-05-2010, 09:49 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I know from importing my 964 Euro Cup that I had to sign in blood with the EPA (not the DOT) that the car would never be converted for street use. There is a $25k fine if it is attempted that carries to all subsequent owners. If I don't notify the EPA that I've sold the car and a subsequent owner tries to register it, I will get hit with the $25k fine.
Since I suspect all Cups are brought into the States these days under the race car exemption, every one will face this limitation. Thus I do not think it is feasible. Note that this is a Federal issue, so no state is going to save you.
Since I suspect all Cups are brought into the States these days under the race car exemption, every one will face this limitation. Thus I do not think it is feasible. Note that this is a Federal issue, so no state is going to save you.
01-05-2010, 10:45 PM
#20
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Charlie,
Very interesting. Thank you for your response.
I've heard about this exemption, but I've never actually seen the paperwork you describe. It raises a few questions in my mind.
When you imported your 964 Cup (when was that, by the way?), were you required to sign this exemption by the EPA before you could take delivery of the car? Do you have a copy of that document? If/when you sell the car, are you required to notify the EPA of the sale, or is just in your best interest to do so (so as to avoid a penalty if the next owner tries to register it)? I assume if you sell the car, the new owner should get a copy of that paperwork. Does the new owner then carry the liablity for that fine? Do they have to sign somewhere that they'll abide by that rule?
I wonder if the EPA could be approached to reconsider this restriction. I realize it's a big organization, and I'm not sure how you'd go about it, but it seems to me that it would be very possible to make the car comply with applicable emission standards without much (if any) work. 996 Cup Cars come with catalytic converters anyway, and they run on unleaded fuel. To my knowledge, they're likely to be able to pass a practical smog test. Not sure about vapor recovery from the fuel tank, though. I don't know about 964 Cups, but I bet they could be catalytic equipped too, and that fuel tank venting could be handled easily. It seems logical that if you could show the EPA that the car is emissions compliant, even though it wasn't imported with such certification, that they might consider waiving that rule. After all, the car would then comply with the spirit of the law, which is emission control. But to get someone to approve it might be a nightmare.
I'm not interested in breaking the law at all -- I'm just interested if there's a legal means for getting such a car registered. Even though it's a federal requirement, I'm not sure how such a rule can get enforced, because the registration process is done on the state level. I called the Washington Department of Licensing (DOL) today, and they said I had to talk to the State Patrol, which handles inspections of cars coming into the state. I'll find out more tomorrow, but it sounds like the WSP isn't likely to ask for EPA paperwork or proof of emission certification. They're only interested in seeing that the car is "street legal" and that the VIN matches whatever paperwork accompanies the car (like the title). My impression is that if there's no title (and there wouldn't be for a race car), then as long as the car has lights, bumpers, a horn and such (not sure exactly what's needed, and the devil may be in the details here), then they declare it legal and send you back to the DOL to register the car. Even without a title, the DOL can then issue a registration for the car in a category called "ownership in doubt" for three years, while a title is created. Meanwhile, the car has a license plate and is legal, buy the title takes three years to be issued.
Clearly, you wouldn't want to get fined by the EPA, but I'm not sure at what stage the existence of that exemption would show up. How would it get discovered? Do you suppose that if the State Patrol ran the VIN, there's some message in the system from the EPA? I'll check further and report back.
Rob
Very interesting. Thank you for your response.
I've heard about this exemption, but I've never actually seen the paperwork you describe. It raises a few questions in my mind.
When you imported your 964 Cup (when was that, by the way?), were you required to sign this exemption by the EPA before you could take delivery of the car? Do you have a copy of that document? If/when you sell the car, are you required to notify the EPA of the sale, or is just in your best interest to do so (so as to avoid a penalty if the next owner tries to register it)? I assume if you sell the car, the new owner should get a copy of that paperwork. Does the new owner then carry the liablity for that fine? Do they have to sign somewhere that they'll abide by that rule?
I wonder if the EPA could be approached to reconsider this restriction. I realize it's a big organization, and I'm not sure how you'd go about it, but it seems to me that it would be very possible to make the car comply with applicable emission standards without much (if any) work. 996 Cup Cars come with catalytic converters anyway, and they run on unleaded fuel. To my knowledge, they're likely to be able to pass a practical smog test. Not sure about vapor recovery from the fuel tank, though. I don't know about 964 Cups, but I bet they could be catalytic equipped too, and that fuel tank venting could be handled easily. It seems logical that if you could show the EPA that the car is emissions compliant, even though it wasn't imported with such certification, that they might consider waiving that rule. After all, the car would then comply with the spirit of the law, which is emission control. But to get someone to approve it might be a nightmare.
I'm not interested in breaking the law at all -- I'm just interested if there's a legal means for getting such a car registered. Even though it's a federal requirement, I'm not sure how such a rule can get enforced, because the registration process is done on the state level. I called the Washington Department of Licensing (DOL) today, and they said I had to talk to the State Patrol, which handles inspections of cars coming into the state. I'll find out more tomorrow, but it sounds like the WSP isn't likely to ask for EPA paperwork or proof of emission certification. They're only interested in seeing that the car is "street legal" and that the VIN matches whatever paperwork accompanies the car (like the title). My impression is that if there's no title (and there wouldn't be for a race car), then as long as the car has lights, bumpers, a horn and such (not sure exactly what's needed, and the devil may be in the details here), then they declare it legal and send you back to the DOL to register the car. Even without a title, the DOL can then issue a registration for the car in a category called "ownership in doubt" for three years, while a title is created. Meanwhile, the car has a license plate and is legal, buy the title takes three years to be issued.
Clearly, you wouldn't want to get fined by the EPA, but I'm not sure at what stage the existence of that exemption would show up. How would it get discovered? Do you suppose that if the State Patrol ran the VIN, there's some message in the system from the EPA? I'll check further and report back.
Rob
01-05-2010, 11:12 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Rob, you only need to look back to the 959 being brought into the country and see how much the DOT/EPA will move on this. Holbert's and big pockets could not get brand new cars street legal with more influence than you could possibly muster. After all the legal wrangling I think one or two ended up in collections not to be driven just looked at. The rest went back to Germany.
01-06-2010, 12:16 AM
#22
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Bobt,
I hear you.
I know very little about the 959 situation, other than Bill Gates was involved too. But things are different now -- that was over 20 years ago, and it involved new cars. I can imagine that the government was concerned about a precedent that would allow new cars that aren't legal to flood the country. I'm interested in seeing whether individual instances of very unusual used cars, that can actually pass emission testing, may be allowed in on a case-by-case basis. Since that time of the 959 in 1988 or so, the government (not sure if it was EPA or DOT or both) allowed a one-time exemption for individuals importing otherwise illegal cars. Though that exemption has now ended, I think its existence indicates a moderation in the mindset that gives some hope that using "reason" may be worth a try. It may be worth at least asking the question and seeing what the response is. But if the answer is "hell no," then you're right -- I'm not likely to have much influence...
Rob
I hear you.
I know very little about the 959 situation, other than Bill Gates was involved too. But things are different now -- that was over 20 years ago, and it involved new cars. I can imagine that the government was concerned about a precedent that would allow new cars that aren't legal to flood the country. I'm interested in seeing whether individual instances of very unusual used cars, that can actually pass emission testing, may be allowed in on a case-by-case basis. Since that time of the 959 in 1988 or so, the government (not sure if it was EPA or DOT or both) allowed a one-time exemption for individuals importing otherwise illegal cars. Though that exemption has now ended, I think its existence indicates a moderation in the mindset that gives some hope that using "reason" may be worth a try. It may be worth at least asking the question and seeing what the response is. But if the answer is "hell no," then you're right -- I'm not likely to have much influence...
Rob
01-06-2010, 12:37 AM
#23
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I know I guy who sticks a tag on his Lola T-70 and drives it. He even brought it to a PCA meeting. Drove a real GT-40 to another one. At our last DE at Road Atlanta I had to tech his...get this..........962
01-06-2010, 01:00 AM
#24
Regrading cup vs regular GT3 engines:
As far as I know an 04 gt3 bottom end and an 04 cup bottom end are the same. Rods, pistons, crank etc. The major difference is no variable cam timing ont he cup. I think that if a street GT3 was run like a cup car it needs to be maintained just the same.
As far as I know an 04 gt3 bottom end and an 04 cup bottom end are the same. Rods, pistons, crank etc. The major difference is no variable cam timing ont he cup. I think that if a street GT3 was run like a cup car it needs to be maintained just the same.
01-06-2010, 09:30 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
I can't figure out what you are really trying to accomplish. Is it the intellectual challenge of figuring out how to register a race car for the street or do you honestly believe this is the best way for you to track a Cup Car or do you believe that adapting the car for the street will enable you to actually drive it on the street on a frequent basis when not going to the track?
To actually drive it on the street, more than just to the track, you would be changing a lot of things out as you already noted. Suspension settings would also have to be changed. You'd be back to having a compromise dual purpose car, not a real race car. Plus you'd have a roll bar sitting up next to your head without a helmet on, not a great idea.
If you just want to drive to the track, did you plan on driving to the track on racing slicks? If not, you have a compromise car again and IMO it's pointless to drive a Cup Car on anything but slicks. If you only intend to track a couple of times per year, as you mentioned, why not just rent a tuck/trailer when needed? Or if you have the money to track a Cup Car you most certainly should have the money to also pay for a flat bed tow for the couple of times a year you go to the track. Why not leave the car alone and do that?
Do you have the experience and skill level to ring out the performance from a Cup Car? Just wondering if there are more reasonable choices that will help you accomplish the same thing on track. Also keep in mind that having a Cup Car at the track with no spares, no tools, etc. is a risky proposition. When race cars are driven to their potential, things break from time to time. Best case your track day would be over and you limp home. Worst case you are stranded at the track with a car that can't be driven.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, internet exchanges can sometimes come across that way, I'm just struggling to understand the logic behind all this?
To actually drive it on the street, more than just to the track, you would be changing a lot of things out as you already noted. Suspension settings would also have to be changed. You'd be back to having a compromise dual purpose car, not a real race car. Plus you'd have a roll bar sitting up next to your head without a helmet on, not a great idea.
If you just want to drive to the track, did you plan on driving to the track on racing slicks? If not, you have a compromise car again and IMO it's pointless to drive a Cup Car on anything but slicks. If you only intend to track a couple of times per year, as you mentioned, why not just rent a tuck/trailer when needed? Or if you have the money to track a Cup Car you most certainly should have the money to also pay for a flat bed tow for the couple of times a year you go to the track. Why not leave the car alone and do that?
Do you have the experience and skill level to ring out the performance from a Cup Car? Just wondering if there are more reasonable choices that will help you accomplish the same thing on track. Also keep in mind that having a Cup Car at the track with no spares, no tools, etc. is a risky proposition. When race cars are driven to their potential, things break from time to time. Best case your track day would be over and you limp home. Worst case you are stranded at the track with a car that can't be driven.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, internet exchanges can sometimes come across that way, I'm just struggling to understand the logic behind all this?
01-06-2010, 01:33 PM
#27
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Thread Starter
Jaker,
As I indicated in an earlier post: I'm looking for the experience of a race-prepared car on the track, particularly a GT3, without the full entourage of trailers and tow vehicles. I'm interested in a balance that others might not want -- a highly capable, marginally streetworthy race car. I enjoy the sport of getting it there and back under its own power, as I do with my current track car, which is barely streetable. Of course, I could own a trailer and tow vehicle, or rent one if needed. If I were racing the car, that would be the only way to go. But the intensity of HPDE tracks days is enough lower that I don't think such hardware is necessary. I've crewed for a Cup Car since 2001 and I've been a track driver, racer, and instructor for years. I know what's necessary in the way of equipment and spares. I can make this work. But not if I can't license the car.
The car would obviously have to run on DOT tires, likely Hoosiers. It's probably the biggest compromise to the car's performance and setup that's unavoidable. Alignment settings would have to be appropriate for those tires, but not necessarily for the street. A Hoosier-based track alignment would be retained. Ride height might have to be raised slightly, and the radiator might need an electric fan. But otherwise, the chassis and drive train could be left alone, including the exhaust, if I'm careful to keep the noise down. An unfriendly and noisy clutch/gearbox is not a problem. The 20 miles of smooth road between the home and track would not be a problem. Our track has more potholes than the road does...
My frame of reference is not "Why would you want to compromise a Cup Car and run it in anything other than full-race prep?" It's "How can I make a streetable GT3 go fast around the track?" Older Cup Cars are relatively affordable and becoming less competitive as active race cars as time goes on. To trim one for marginal street use would take a whole lot less than stripping and upgrading a street GT3 to the same level of performance and safety on the track.
One person commented about why I would want to "ruin" a Cup Car in such a way. I look at it just the other way around: Why would I want to ruin a street car, when the race car is already set the way I want it? The base price for the street and race cars is similar right now. In terms of bang for the buck, I think that starting with a race car is a viable alternative. But not if it can't be registered!
Rob
As I indicated in an earlier post: I'm looking for the experience of a race-prepared car on the track, particularly a GT3, without the full entourage of trailers and tow vehicles. I'm interested in a balance that others might not want -- a highly capable, marginally streetworthy race car. I enjoy the sport of getting it there and back under its own power, as I do with my current track car, which is barely streetable. Of course, I could own a trailer and tow vehicle, or rent one if needed. If I were racing the car, that would be the only way to go. But the intensity of HPDE tracks days is enough lower that I don't think such hardware is necessary. I've crewed for a Cup Car since 2001 and I've been a track driver, racer, and instructor for years. I know what's necessary in the way of equipment and spares. I can make this work. But not if I can't license the car.
The car would obviously have to run on DOT tires, likely Hoosiers. It's probably the biggest compromise to the car's performance and setup that's unavoidable. Alignment settings would have to be appropriate for those tires, but not necessarily for the street. A Hoosier-based track alignment would be retained. Ride height might have to be raised slightly, and the radiator might need an electric fan. But otherwise, the chassis and drive train could be left alone, including the exhaust, if I'm careful to keep the noise down. An unfriendly and noisy clutch/gearbox is not a problem. The 20 miles of smooth road between the home and track would not be a problem. Our track has more potholes than the road does...
My frame of reference is not "Why would you want to compromise a Cup Car and run it in anything other than full-race prep?" It's "How can I make a streetable GT3 go fast around the track?" Older Cup Cars are relatively affordable and becoming less competitive as active race cars as time goes on. To trim one for marginal street use would take a whole lot less than stripping and upgrading a street GT3 to the same level of performance and safety on the track.
One person commented about why I would want to "ruin" a Cup Car in such a way. I look at it just the other way around: Why would I want to ruin a street car, when the race car is already set the way I want it? The base price for the street and race cars is similar right now. In terms of bang for the buck, I think that starting with a race car is a viable alternative. But not if it can't be registered!
Rob
01-06-2010, 07:16 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
If you tried to drive anything but a 100% legal car in Ga., well, it wouldn't go well. No windows, emissions, noise would be just asking for a fight you won't win. Heck, even a 100% legal GT3 that has been overly modded would get you in some interesting one way conversations.
01-06-2010, 09:13 PM
#30
Pro
Thread Starter
If performance is the goal, and streetability is a distant second, then you're going to spend far more money bringing a street car up to anywhere near the Cup Car level. To bring a Cup Car down may be as little as a set of tires, some minor suspension adjustments, and a set of snap-in temporary side windows. There are numerous older Cup Cars available in the $50-$70K range. Street cars are in the $40-$60K range. Mods to get to a street car to the performance, safety, and weight of a Cup Car would probably cost $60-80K. And then you'd have a modded car, not a factory race car, and you'd suffer the usual 25 cents on the dollar return in investment. All day long you see guys with tweaked-out 911s with full cages, CF bodywork, high strung engines, and stripped out interiors driving their cars to and from track days and no one questions their sanity. Why not a Cup Car? Not only would it make financial sense from the standpoint that it's already maximally equipped for performance and safety, but I'm sure that for the same driver, even a well-prepped street-based car will be seconds off the pace of a streetably de-tuned race car, and the street car will not give the same sensation.
Those of you who are nay-sayers on the concept won't be convinced by my rationale. And I won't be convinced by your doubts. So it probably isn't helpful to debate that further.
But this is all moot if the car can't be registered. I'd appreciate any constructive discussion on that point.
Rob
Those of you who are nay-sayers on the concept won't be convinced by my rationale. And I won't be convinced by your doubts. So it probably isn't helpful to debate that further.
But this is all moot if the car can't be registered. I'd appreciate any constructive discussion on that point.
Rob