Great GT2 Finish at Laguna Last Night....
#76
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Actually, I just studied the video again.
The vet bumped JB. took an inside line and while JB started to try and shut the door, the vet had its nose at JBs rear and there is some slight contact. JB trying to give the message that the door is REALLY shutting. However before they get to the walll, JB lets off and now they are side by side. actual room on the wall side. The vet is as close to the wall as possible and not the 911 is trying to keep him from passing and there is contact again. Then, here is where it gets interesting, the vet gets by, and then seemingly loses conrol , and cuts across the track , JB hits the brake to avoid him and he shoots across, and JB continues straight. Ive seen a lot of pinched off lines right ther before, and you cant use the argument that JB was going straight and the wall curves. For all practical purposes, the wall is very staight until just before start finish.
So, as much as I think JB was agressively closing a door on the Vets foot, the loss of control seemed to be on its own, without JB's help. watch it again and look at the contact points. The YOUTUBE video is ok, but on TV with a big screen, you see a heck of a lot more.
by the way, the wall doesnt "jet" out. it looks that way from the camera angle, but its pretty straight all the way to the start finish tower.
The vet bumped JB. took an inside line and while JB started to try and shut the door, the vet had its nose at JBs rear and there is some slight contact. JB trying to give the message that the door is REALLY shutting. However before they get to the walll, JB lets off and now they are side by side. actual room on the wall side. The vet is as close to the wall as possible and not the 911 is trying to keep him from passing and there is contact again. Then, here is where it gets interesting, the vet gets by, and then seemingly loses conrol , and cuts across the track , JB hits the brake to avoid him and he shoots across, and JB continues straight. Ive seen a lot of pinched off lines right ther before, and you cant use the argument that JB was going straight and the wall curves. For all practical purposes, the wall is very staight until just before start finish.
So, as much as I think JB was agressively closing a door on the Vets foot, the loss of control seemed to be on its own, without JB's help. watch it again and look at the contact points. The YOUTUBE video is ok, but on TV with a big screen, you see a heck of a lot more.
by the way, the wall doesnt "jet" out. it looks that way from the camera angle, but its pretty straight all the way to the start finish tower.
But what about the outward curve of the wall? Had the wall been straight it would've been different, but its not. The Vette committed to an impossible line, which required him to turn to the right while partially in front of the Porsche. That's a recipe for exactly what happened. The only way that line would've worked was if JB would've moved to the right as the wall curved out, to accomodate the Vette's pass. Who here would do that?
#77
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Actually, I just studied the video again.
The vet bumped JB. took an inside line and while JB started to try and shut the door, the vet had its nose at JBs rear and there is some slight contact. JB trying to give the message that the door is REALLY shutting. However before they get to the walll, JB lets off and now they are side by side. actual room on the wall side. The vet is as close to the wall as possible and not the 911 is trying to keep him from passing and there is contact again. Then, here is where it gets interesting, the vet gets by, and then seemingly loses conrol , and cuts across the track , JB hits the brake to avoid him and he shoots across, and JB continues straight. Ive seen a lot of pinched off lines right ther before, and you cant use the argument that JB was going straight and the wall curves. For all practical purposes, the wall is very staight until just before start finish.
So, as much as I think JB was agressively closing a door on the Vets foot, the loss of control seemed to be on its own, without JB's help. watch it again and look at the contact points. The YOUTUBE video is ok, but on TV with a big screen, you see a heck of a lot more.
by the way, the wall doesnt "jet" out. it looks that way from the camera angle, but its pretty straight all the way to the start finish tower.
The vet bumped JB. took an inside line and while JB started to try and shut the door, the vet had its nose at JBs rear and there is some slight contact. JB trying to give the message that the door is REALLY shutting. However before they get to the walll, JB lets off and now they are side by side. actual room on the wall side. The vet is as close to the wall as possible and not the 911 is trying to keep him from passing and there is contact again. Then, here is where it gets interesting, the vet gets by, and then seemingly loses conrol , and cuts across the track , JB hits the brake to avoid him and he shoots across, and JB continues straight. Ive seen a lot of pinched off lines right ther before, and you cant use the argument that JB was going straight and the wall curves. For all practical purposes, the wall is very staight until just before start finish.
So, as much as I think JB was agressively closing a door on the Vets foot, the loss of control seemed to be on its own, without JB's help. watch it again and look at the contact points. The YOUTUBE video is ok, but on TV with a big screen, you see a heck of a lot more.
by the way, the wall doesnt "jet" out. it looks that way from the camera angle, but its pretty straight all the way to the start finish tower.
Here's another thing that the youtube clip doesn't show.... On the previous 4 or 5 laps, JM was right on JB's bumper through T11 - just like the final lap. Each time, there was a drag race down the straight. Each time, JM could not pull ahead until well after the start/finish line. Clearly, JM had to know that he would have to make contact at T11 in order to change the outcome down the straight.
JM's bump was calculated (and predicted), and designed to overcome his car's inability to win the race on the straight. Perhaps that is why he also made 3 bold attempts to take the lead in T1/T2 instead. In my view, JM intended to do whatever it would take to win, including contact if necessary, whereas JB merely reacted in the heat of the battle.
#78
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That is easy. It is a move when the other car does not currently occupy the space you are taking. If they have to move over to avoid contact, that is not a clean move but is pushing someone into the wall.
#80
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Great thread. Taking a bit of a different tact; You have to think that Jorg, who was pushed to the wall at Sebring by Melo, was thinking I braked my car and played fair in that situation. IMSA didn't penalize Melo for driving me to the wall. Therefore, Jan should brake and "play fair" here. If I let him go and he wins, IMSA is not going to punish Jan for getting me loose at turn 11 so I will be screwed again. And, I am not going to get screwed again! If you listen to his interview at the end he said he wasn't going to "give this one away". With him "still shaking" from the battle, you can almost hear him referring to Sebring.
#82
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JM knocked the lizard off his line with the intentional bump. JB went back to his original line with authority and then went to block.
the corvette could have braked, accident avoided.
this isn't nascar where the corvette couldn't touch his brakes without causing a 22 car pile up.
the corvette could have braked, accident avoided.
this isn't nascar where the corvette couldn't touch his brakes without causing a 22 car pile up.
#83
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For those that didn't see the last lap
#86
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Magnussen was well ahead.
Irrespective of Magnussen's own reprehensible behavior in this race, I stand by my original opinion on this.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
Irrespective of Magnussen's own reprehensible behavior in this race, I stand by my original opinion on this.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
#87
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In the interest of hearing all sides I found this on a Corvette forum... This explains ALOT !!!
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...meister-2.html
"Hi Guys,
First let me say that Jan is the only driver on the Chevy team that came to congratulate us last race for out qualifying the Factory team. He is a class act.
He is also one tough driver .
First incident in pit out lane: the rule is there because there are always cars coming out of the pits and they have to travel around past turn 2 to enter the track. So driving 4 wheels into that lane is just asking for trouble. If there was a car coming out of the pits then, it would have been really bad for them.
Let me also say that in practice (yes practice) there was only one car that constantly hit us (yes hit us) or shoved our corvette into the dirt and they were the Corvette factory cars. Even when we were waiving them by, they would brush us or squeeze us. even at Atlanta, on the long straight as we were passing them they squeezed our driver (on video) against the grass for some reason.
I can only assume that the drivers were "Instructed" to intimidate us so we might be off our game and not repeat the Atlanta qualifying scenario.
No other cars on the track do that. Not to us and not to the others. Just the factory Corvette team. (must be the foreigners)
At any rate, at Laguna, which is Government owned, they did not want to move the inside pit wall toward the paddock to widen the exit of the pits to make room for the flagger's stand at start finish. So they pushed the pit wall toward the track side. so the pit wall curves toward the track side. If you look at the video, you will see that if you run within inches of the pit wall and stay totally straight on your steering, you WILL hit the part of the wall that is pushed toward the track side.
This is a common crash at Laguna. It would not require the 45 car to do anything for this crash to happen.
If you look at the video, you will see that Jan sees the wall coming and he turns to the right to avoid the wall. Bergmeister just provided the pivot that turned the Corvette to the right.
The Porsche then touches his brakes to avoid the Corvette as it crosses in front of the 45 car. The porsche just got out of the way and let the Corvette continue across the track and unfortunately into the wall. Thankfully Jan was ok because the hit was not a dead straight hit but rather a glancing blow to the wall.
Now to turn 11, the last turn. Jan is a hard racer. He saw that he was not going to be able to pass him cleanly so he released his brakes and actually accelerated into the Porsche with the intention of spinning him.
The contact only wiggled the Porsche enough to cause a drag race against the pit wall. "A wall that has a curve in it that protrudes toward the track side.
Once they were an inch away from the wall and an inch away from each other, there was no other outcome that could be had without the Corvette or Porsche giving up and lifting. And this was a high contact sport for some laps.
And to ask the porsche to lift and hand over the just after the Porsche got tagged intentionally and cleaqrly smashed in the rear by Jan, would be asking a racer too much.
So that is the way I see it. The Corvette drivers are getting a reputation as the "dirty" drivers in the series. When Johnny O pushed the Porsche into the gravel earlier, it was considered a good thing by the team. "Rah rah rah, good job" is what came over their radio.
So there you have it. You reap what you sow and if you rough drive too much, this kind of thing WILl happen more often.
Oh, and during the race, we lost a few laps for a couple of reasons, and bad calls on our part but while we were on track, our #28 car was hit in the door by the #3 car really hard in turn 9, while trying to let them by. and again in turn 2, they drove across my right front splitter and bumper. Weird!
Thanks
Lou Gigliotti
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...meister-2.html
"Hi Guys,
First let me say that Jan is the only driver on the Chevy team that came to congratulate us last race for out qualifying the Factory team. He is a class act.
He is also one tough driver .
First incident in pit out lane: the rule is there because there are always cars coming out of the pits and they have to travel around past turn 2 to enter the track. So driving 4 wheels into that lane is just asking for trouble. If there was a car coming out of the pits then, it would have been really bad for them.
Let me also say that in practice (yes practice) there was only one car that constantly hit us (yes hit us) or shoved our corvette into the dirt and they were the Corvette factory cars. Even when we were waiving them by, they would brush us or squeeze us. even at Atlanta, on the long straight as we were passing them they squeezed our driver (on video) against the grass for some reason.
I can only assume that the drivers were "Instructed" to intimidate us so we might be off our game and not repeat the Atlanta qualifying scenario.
No other cars on the track do that. Not to us and not to the others. Just the factory Corvette team. (must be the foreigners)
At any rate, at Laguna, which is Government owned, they did not want to move the inside pit wall toward the paddock to widen the exit of the pits to make room for the flagger's stand at start finish. So they pushed the pit wall toward the track side. so the pit wall curves toward the track side. If you look at the video, you will see that if you run within inches of the pit wall and stay totally straight on your steering, you WILL hit the part of the wall that is pushed toward the track side.
This is a common crash at Laguna. It would not require the 45 car to do anything for this crash to happen.
If you look at the video, you will see that Jan sees the wall coming and he turns to the right to avoid the wall. Bergmeister just provided the pivot that turned the Corvette to the right.
The Porsche then touches his brakes to avoid the Corvette as it crosses in front of the 45 car. The porsche just got out of the way and let the Corvette continue across the track and unfortunately into the wall. Thankfully Jan was ok because the hit was not a dead straight hit but rather a glancing blow to the wall.
Now to turn 11, the last turn. Jan is a hard racer. He saw that he was not going to be able to pass him cleanly so he released his brakes and actually accelerated into the Porsche with the intention of spinning him.
The contact only wiggled the Porsche enough to cause a drag race against the pit wall. "A wall that has a curve in it that protrudes toward the track side.
Once they were an inch away from the wall and an inch away from each other, there was no other outcome that could be had without the Corvette or Porsche giving up and lifting. And this was a high contact sport for some laps.
And to ask the porsche to lift and hand over the just after the Porsche got tagged intentionally and cleaqrly smashed in the rear by Jan, would be asking a racer too much.
So that is the way I see it. The Corvette drivers are getting a reputation as the "dirty" drivers in the series. When Johnny O pushed the Porsche into the gravel earlier, it was considered a good thing by the team. "Rah rah rah, good job" is what came over their radio.
So there you have it. You reap what you sow and if you rough drive too much, this kind of thing WILl happen more often.
Oh, and during the race, we lost a few laps for a couple of reasons, and bad calls on our part but while we were on track, our #28 car was hit in the door by the #3 car really hard in turn 9, while trying to let them by. and again in turn 2, they drove across my right front splitter and bumper. Weird!
Thanks
Lou Gigliotti
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#88
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http://www.speedtv.com/feedback/
http://www.versus.com/article/view/7...erArticles.tpl
IMO, the Porsche deserves a penalty for running him into the wall and causing the wreck. If the data shows that the Vette hit the Porsche (if there was no over-slowing) then they also deserve a penalty. Without action, ALMS is little more than the WWF of racing, and they should start throwing competition yellows to improve the show.
Last lap, regular speed, 1/2 speed, and 1/4 speed
Contact at the 39 second mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmeyvQcciTQ
Jaime Melo gave more room for the #45 machine on the final straight in the 2007 Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring than was recently shown at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca.
The 2007 Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring had just two caution flags and the last one happened over three hours from the finish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I
http://www.sebringraceway.com/
Pictures from the last lap
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s..._2428-crop.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s..._2429-crop.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s..._2430-crop.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s..._2431-crop.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s..._2433-crop.jpg
Pictures of the #45 machine
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL432.../375928766.jpg
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL432.../375858881.jpg
Jörg Bergmeister and Jan Magnussen placed on two-race probation for 2010
http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...FS=ALMS-LEMANS
Pictures from the Monterey Sports Car Championships presented by Patrón
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/2009...-championships
http://www.flickr.com/groups/alms/
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/sel.../Saturday_race
http://www.lizardms.com/
#89
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Thanks BigPine Key those pics are great...
In the 4th picture it looks like Jan is starting to loose it but I don't see that Joerg has pinched him any more than in the previous picture.
I wonder if he might have run through some clag and the back end got loose...
In the 4th picture it looks like Jan is starting to loose it but I don't see that Joerg has pinched him any more than in the previous picture.
I wonder if he might have run through some clag and the back end got loose...