Toyo vs Hoosiers vs slicks
10-14-2009, 12:39 AM
#62
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
You are so funny with the recap.
Missed the point entirely. Anyway, so far, I'm the only one that has posted any real data. Bench racing is what we do when we dont have any direct information. The information we do have here has been posted . Lots of times on both tires (slicks and DOT hoosiers). Ive only posted information that I know and only "bet " on the possiblity of performance based on what we do know.
By the way, I dont think ANYONE here that IS in the know about the BMW Sofro was driving (to address the "Bet" and "Trust me" comments that you were mocking me on " would doubt he couldnt run that car from a 1:35 on slicks to a 1:38 on toyos. Lesser drivers have driven a car almost identical to it, with less hp, and less prep to a time in that range on smaller Toyos. (Bruce matesso, 1:38.7 2008 early season SCCA ITE Laguna Seca) There is a FACT for you.
If you have some proof, or data, lets see it. It would be interesting.
So far, Ive seen nothing but seat of the pants feelings and guestimations of toyos being 6 seconds slower than hoosers and slicks being 2 + seconds faster than Hoosiers. Hypothesis is a theory that you can test. At laguna with a very fast car and good driver, over multiple weekends, using new tires for slicks and hoosiers, I have shown some actual data to support my "Hypothesis" . Now, I would suggest posting some of your own data or video to support YOUR hypothesis.
Never said bottome of the barrel of DOT was the best choice, I just implied that the bottom of the barrel DOT tire could be driven near as fast under the right circumstances to a top of the barrel tire. If you know how to drive them, they are pretty quick and a great bargan. (toyos that is)
No, I dont work or have any bias for toyos other than that I get them from the garbage can and run 1:37s at laguna on them.
Missed the point entirely. Anyway, so far, I'm the only one that has posted any real data. Bench racing is what we do when we dont have any direct information. The information we do have here has been posted . Lots of times on both tires (slicks and DOT hoosiers). Ive only posted information that I know and only "bet " on the possiblity of performance based on what we do know.
By the way, I dont think ANYONE here that IS in the know about the BMW Sofro was driving (to address the "Bet" and "Trust me" comments that you were mocking me on " would doubt he couldnt run that car from a 1:35 on slicks to a 1:38 on toyos. Lesser drivers have driven a car almost identical to it, with less hp, and less prep to a time in that range on smaller Toyos. (Bruce matesso, 1:38.7 2008 early season SCCA ITE Laguna Seca) There is a FACT for you.
If you have some proof, or data, lets see it. It would be interesting.
So far, Ive seen nothing but seat of the pants feelings and guestimations of toyos being 6 seconds slower than hoosers and slicks being 2 + seconds faster than Hoosiers. Hypothesis is a theory that you can test. At laguna with a very fast car and good driver, over multiple weekends, using new tires for slicks and hoosiers, I have shown some actual data to support my "Hypothesis" . Now, I would suggest posting some of your own data or video to support YOUR hypothesis.
Never said bottome of the barrel of DOT was the best choice, I just implied that the bottom of the barrel DOT tire could be driven near as fast under the right circumstances to a top of the barrel tire. If you know how to drive them, they are pretty quick and a great bargan. (toyos that is)
No, I dont work or have any bias for toyos other than that I get them from the garbage can and run 1:37s at laguna on them.
Benchracing hypotheses are the furthest thing from proof.
Just to recap, everyone who has done a back to back, same day, same car, same driver, optimized setup test of DOTR tires has concluded the same result that directly contradicts yours. You have not done a proper objective test, but you 'would bet' that they are all wrong based on lap times 'with this car with a little more hp but a little less suspension' blah blah.
Please come up with some hard actual evidence, without all the usual MK benchracing variables, and I'm sure everyone will be happy to discuss the results.
I've done those tests, so I already know the answer. Actually I dont know why I posted this, because it'd be great if you convinced everyone else that the bottom of the barrel DOTR was the best choice.
Oh and I'm convinced you work for or have tons of stock in Toyo.
Just to recap, everyone who has done a back to back, same day, same car, same driver, optimized setup test of DOTR tires has concluded the same result that directly contradicts yours. You have not done a proper objective test, but you 'would bet' that they are all wrong based on lap times 'with this car with a little more hp but a little less suspension' blah blah.
Please come up with some hard actual evidence, without all the usual MK benchracing variables, and I'm sure everyone will be happy to discuss the results.
I've done those tests, so I already know the answer. Actually I dont know why I posted this, because it'd be great if you convinced everyone else that the bottom of the barrel DOTR was the best choice.
Oh and I'm convinced you work for or have tons of stock in Toyo.
Last edited by mark kibort; 10-14-2009 at 01:00 AM.
10-14-2009, 12:41 AM
#63
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10-14-2009, 01:22 AM
#64
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The reason no one has posted their direct comparison results is because the information (and competitive advantage) was very expensive to obtain and no one is going to give it out for free. If that ends my credibility in the discussion, so be it. I will say my car spends all of its time on two possible DOTRs and the difference between those and the Toyo-level tires was profound.
And I wasnt mocking, just encouraging you and everyone else to do the leg work instead of making assumptions that support the answer you want. Misinformation gets under my skin so I try to limit my Rennlist exposure when possible.
And I most certainly was not doubting James Sofronas's driving ability.
Though I have very little experience on them, I dont think you can lump all slicks into one category any more than you can lump all DOTRs in one. And when comparing slicks to the front running DOTRs, are we talking one lap? First lap? 30th lap?
I will say my car spends all of its time on two possible DOTRs and the difference between those and the Toyo-level tires was profound. And I wasnt mocking, just encouraging you and everyone else to do the leg work instead of making assumptions that support the answer you want. Misinformation gets under my skin so I try to limit my Rennlist exposure when possible.
And I most certainly was not doubting James Sofronas's driving ability.
Though I have very little experience on them, I dont think you can lump all slicks into one category any more than you can lump all DOTRs in one. And when comparing slicks to the front running DOTRs, are we talking one lap? First lap? 30th lap?
You are so funny with the recap.
Missed the point entirely. Anyway, so far, I'm the only one that has posted any real data. Bench racing is what we do when we dont have any direct information. The information we do have here has been posted . Lots of times on both tires (slicks and DOT hoosiers). Ive only posted information that I know and only "bet " on the possiblity of performance based on what we do know.
By the way, I dont think ANYONE here that IS in the know about the BMW Sofro was driving (to address the "Bet" and "Trust me" comments that you were mocking me on " would doubt he couldnt run that car from a 1:35 on slicks to a 1:38 on toyos. Lesser drivers have driven a car almost identical to it, with less hp, and less prep to a time in that range on smaller Toyos. (Bruce matesso, 1:38.7 2008 early season SCCA ITE Laguna Seca) There is a FACT for you.
If you have some proof, or data, lets see it. It would be interesting.
So far, Ive seen nothing but seat of the pants feelings and guestimations of toyos being 6 seconds slower than hoosers and slicks being 2 + seconds faster than Hoosiers. Hypothesis is a theory that you can test. At laguna with a very fast car and good driver, over multiple weekends, using new tires for slicks and hoosiers, I have shown some actual data to support my "Hypothesis" . Now, I would suggest posting some of your own data or video to support YOUR hypothesis.
Never said bottome of the barrel of DOT was the best choice, I just implied that the bottom of the barrel DOT tire could be driven near as fast under the right circumstances to a top of the barrel tire. If you know how to drive them, they are pretty quick and a great bargan. (toyos that is)
No, I dont work or have any bias for toyos other than that I get them from the garbage can and run 1:37s at laguna on them.
Missed the point entirely. Anyway, so far, I'm the only one that has posted any real data. Bench racing is what we do when we dont have any direct information. The information we do have here has been posted . Lots of times on both tires (slicks and DOT hoosiers). Ive only posted information that I know and only "bet " on the possiblity of performance based on what we do know.
By the way, I dont think ANYONE here that IS in the know about the BMW Sofro was driving (to address the "Bet" and "Trust me" comments that you were mocking me on " would doubt he couldnt run that car from a 1:35 on slicks to a 1:38 on toyos. Lesser drivers have driven a car almost identical to it, with less hp, and less prep to a time in that range on smaller Toyos. (Bruce matesso, 1:38.7 2008 early season SCCA ITE Laguna Seca) There is a FACT for you.
If you have some proof, or data, lets see it. It would be interesting.
So far, Ive seen nothing but seat of the pants feelings and guestimations of toyos being 6 seconds slower than hoosers and slicks being 2 + seconds faster than Hoosiers. Hypothesis is a theory that you can test. At laguna with a very fast car and good driver, over multiple weekends, using new tires for slicks and hoosiers, I have shown some actual data to support my "Hypothesis" . Now, I would suggest posting some of your own data or video to support YOUR hypothesis.
Never said bottome of the barrel of DOT was the best choice, I just implied that the bottom of the barrel DOT tire could be driven near as fast under the right circumstances to a top of the barrel tire. If you know how to drive them, they are pretty quick and a great bargan. (toyos that is)
No, I dont work or have any bias for toyos other than that I get them from the garbage can and run 1:37s at laguna on them.
10-14-2009, 09:36 AM
#65
Rennlist Member
The reason no one has posted their direct comparison results is because the information (and competitive advantage) was very expensive to obtain and no one is going to give it out for free. If that ends my credibility in the discussion, so be it. I will say my car spends all of its time on two possible DOTRs and the difference between those and the Toyo-level tires was profound.
And I wasnt mocking, just encouraging you and everyone else to do the leg work instead of making assumptions that support the answer you want. Misinformation gets under my skin so I try to limit my Rennlist exposure when possible.
And I most certainly was not doubting James Sofronas's driving ability.
Though I have very little experience on them, I dont think you can lump all slicks into one category any more than you can lump all DOTRs in one. And when comparing slicks to the front running DOTRs, are we talking one lap? First lap? 30th lap?
I will say my car spends all of its time on two possible DOTRs and the difference between those and the Toyo-level tires was profound. And I wasnt mocking, just encouraging you and everyone else to do the leg work instead of making assumptions that support the answer you want. Misinformation gets under my skin so I try to limit my Rennlist exposure when possible.
And I most certainly was not doubting James Sofronas's driving ability.
Though I have very little experience on them, I dont think you can lump all slicks into one category any more than you can lump all DOTRs in one. And when comparing slicks to the front running DOTRs, are we talking one lap? First lap? 30th lap?
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
10-14-2009, 01:44 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hey, I also agree with you. In fact, personally, I really do think slicks are worth a lot more in some cases. Out here, the bmws seemed to be much faster on slicks than any DOTs, but at the other tracks we run, like T-hill or Sears Point.
It does depend on so many factors, but I thought it was interesting that we could examine data from a test through racing, of a car and driver that did back to back comparisons every single race day. (at least I thought it was interesting, and so did other racers in the paddock) .
So, to answer your last question, as I have mentioned before, YES, that hot lap with the R888s Toyo DOT tires was ONLY one lap, and its first lap off the shaver machine. after that , it falls a second or two and is stable there. Nothing Im saying here should be that surprising, but I can say, the folks that have not felt comfortable with the Toyos, are usually not very fast on them. Ive been running them since they were first made in sizes we could use. guys in the CMC and AS classes have been used to running toyos for years. They require a little differnet style and if you dont adapt, you can be way off you marks. I remember when we used the real toyo street tire (T1S) It was a 280tread wear rated tire. everyone , even all the pros were off there best times by near 4-6 seconds. It took a while to learn to drive them as welll, and even more to regain confidence in the hoosiers when we all went back to normal racing tires.
Anyway, just thought this all was some good information of a particular test in repeated racing environments. thats all.
mk
It does depend on so many factors, but I thought it was interesting that we could examine data from a test through racing, of a car and driver that did back to back comparisons every single race day. (at least I thought it was interesting, and so did other racers in the paddock) .
So, to answer your last question, as I have mentioned before, YES, that hot lap with the R888s Toyo DOT tires was ONLY one lap, and its first lap off the shaver machine. after that , it falls a second or two and is stable there. Nothing Im saying here should be that surprising, but I can say, the folks that have not felt comfortable with the Toyos, are usually not very fast on them. Ive been running them since they were first made in sizes we could use. guys in the CMC and AS classes have been used to running toyos for years. They require a little differnet style and if you dont adapt, you can be way off you marks. I remember when we used the real toyo street tire (T1S) It was a 280tread wear rated tire. everyone , even all the pros were off there best times by near 4-6 seconds. It took a while to learn to drive them as welll, and even more to regain confidence in the hoosiers when we all went back to normal racing tires.
Anyway, just thought this all was some good information of a particular test in repeated racing environments. thats all.
mk
The reason no one has posted their direct comparison results is because the information (and competitive advantage) was very expensive to obtain and no one is going to give it out for free. If that ends my credibility in the discussion, so be it. I will say my car spends all of its time on two possible DOTRs and the difference between those and the Toyo-level tires was profound.
And I wasnt mocking, just encouraging you and everyone else to do the leg work instead of making assumptions that support the answer you want. Misinformation gets under my skin so I try to limit my Rennlist exposure when possible.
And I most certainly was not doubting James Sofronas's driving ability.
Though I have very little experience on them, I dont think you can lump all slicks into one category any more than you can lump all DOTRs in one. And when comparing slicks to the front running DOTRs, are we talking one lap? First lap? 30th lap?
I will say my car spends all of its time on two possible DOTRs and the difference between those and the Toyo-level tires was profound. And I wasnt mocking, just encouraging you and everyone else to do the leg work instead of making assumptions that support the answer you want. Misinformation gets under my skin so I try to limit my Rennlist exposure when possible.
And I most certainly was not doubting James Sofronas's driving ability.
Though I have very little experience on them, I dont think you can lump all slicks into one category any more than you can lump all DOTRs in one. And when comparing slicks to the front running DOTRs, are we talking one lap? First lap? 30th lap?
10-14-2009, 01:45 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hey, I also agree with you. In fact, personally, I really do think slicks are worth a lot more in some cases. Out here, the bmws seemed to be much faster on slicks than any DOTs, but at the other tracks we run, like T-hill or Sears Point.
I think we saw the bmws near 4 seconds faster on slicks at thundrehill vs comparable times with DOTs for guys we know.
It does depend on so many factors, but I thought it was interesting that we could examine data from a test through racing, of a car and driver that did back to back comparisons every single race day. (at least I thought it was interesting, and so did other racers in the paddock) .
So, to answer your last question, as I have mentioned before, YES, that hot lap with the R888s Toyo DOT tires was ONLY one lap, and its first lap off the shaver machine. after that , it falls a second or two and is stable there. Nothing Im saying here should be that surprising, but I can say, the folks that have not felt comfortable with the Toyos, are usually not very fast on them. Ive been running them since they were first made in sizes we could use. guys in the CMC and AS classes have been used to running toyos for years. They require a little differnet style and if you dont adapt, you can be way off you marks. I remember when we used the real toyo street tire (T1S) It was a 280tread wear rated tire. everyone , even all the pros were off there best times by near 4-6 seconds. It took a while to learn to drive them as welll, and even more to regain confidence in the hoosiers when we all went back to normal racing tires.
Anyway, just thought this all was some good information of a particular test in repeated racing environments. thats all.
mk
I think we saw the bmws near 4 seconds faster on slicks at thundrehill vs comparable times with DOTs for guys we know.
It does depend on so many factors, but I thought it was interesting that we could examine data from a test through racing, of a car and driver that did back to back comparisons every single race day. (at least I thought it was interesting, and so did other racers in the paddock) .
So, to answer your last question, as I have mentioned before, YES, that hot lap with the R888s Toyo DOT tires was ONLY one lap, and its first lap off the shaver machine. after that , it falls a second or two and is stable there. Nothing Im saying here should be that surprising, but I can say, the folks that have not felt comfortable with the Toyos, are usually not very fast on them. Ive been running them since they were first made in sizes we could use. guys in the CMC and AS classes have been used to running toyos for years. They require a little differnet style and if you dont adapt, you can be way off you marks. I remember when we used the real toyo street tire (T1S) It was a 280tread wear rated tire. everyone , even all the pros were off there best times by near 4-6 seconds. It took a while to learn to drive them as welll, and even more to regain confidence in the hoosiers when we all went back to normal racing tires.
Anyway, just thought this all was some good information of a particular test in repeated racing environments. thats all.
mk
The reason no one has posted their direct comparison results is because the information (and competitive advantage) was very expensive to obtain and no one is going to give it out for free. If that ends my credibility in the discussion, so be it. I will say my car spends all of its time on two possible DOTRs and the difference between those and the Toyo-level tires was profound.
And I wasnt mocking, just encouraging you and everyone else to do the leg work instead of making assumptions that support the answer you want. Misinformation gets under my skin so I try to limit my Rennlist exposure when possible.
And I most certainly was not doubting James Sofronas's driving ability.
Though I have very little experience on them, I dont think you can lump all slicks into one category any more than you can lump all DOTRs in one. And when comparing slicks to the front running DOTRs, are we talking one lap? First lap? 30th lap?
I will say my car spends all of its time on two possible DOTRs and the difference between those and the Toyo-level tires was profound. And I wasnt mocking, just encouraging you and everyone else to do the leg work instead of making assumptions that support the answer you want. Misinformation gets under my skin so I try to limit my Rennlist exposure when possible.
And I most certainly was not doubting James Sofronas's driving ability.
Though I have very little experience on them, I dont think you can lump all slicks into one category any more than you can lump all DOTRs in one. And when comparing slicks to the front running DOTRs, are we talking one lap? First lap? 30th lap?
10-14-2009, 02:07 PM
#68
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Mark it was my home track Le Circuit Mont Tremblant. New sticker R 888s versus stickers Hoosiers. When I said I hated the Toyos, I meant it. I was running 1:54s or the same as I run on the OEM street tires!!!!
I happily ditched the Toyos and went back to the R6s and on Stickers ran 1:48s.
The point which I think you missed was that my car is set up for the Hoosiers. I will allow for the fact that full tread 888s suck (to quote Dave) and shaved they might have been better.
Perhaps shaved and with a set up more to their liking I would have done better. Again the point is that back to back tests with a car optimized for one tire versus another are not useful. Had my car been optimized for the Toyos and had the Toyos been shaved, the results might have been closer.
Since then I have switched to Michelin Yellows which after more camber and a bit less toe prove to be one second faster than the Hoosiers and to my surprise more consistent.
Regards,
I happily ditched the Toyos and went back to the R6s and on Stickers ran 1:48s.
The point which I think you missed was that my car is set up for the Hoosiers. I will allow for the fact that full tread 888s suck (to quote Dave) and shaved they might have been better.
Perhaps shaved and with a set up more to their liking I would have done better. Again the point is that back to back tests with a car optimized for one tire versus another are not useful. Had my car been optimized for the Toyos and had the Toyos been shaved, the results might have been closer.
Since then I have switched to Michelin Yellows which after more camber and a bit less toe prove to be one second faster than the Hoosiers and to my surprise more consistent.
Regards,
Bob, with all due respect, 6 seconds? So, with my car,(the way it was in '08) barely above touring WC specs for weight and power, I would be able to wax the entire WCGT field by gaining 6 seconds over my RA1 times and even if the R888s were 1 second slower, you can see that thats a little beyond extreme if the only change was a set of R6 Hoosiers.
By the way, what track was the set up for the R6s and the 1:48 lap?
By the way, what track was the set up for the R6s and the 1:48 lap?
10-14-2009, 03:50 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
well yes, that would explain most of it. Full tread is like running a rain tire.
Shaved WOULD have been much better, along with some set up changes.
I did just the opposite. my car seems to be ok on toyos. (its not really optimized as I maxed out my settings many years ago and would like it to be stiffer), But, when I went to the hoosier, it was noticeably better, but times were only slightly better ( .25seconds in my book is a big differnce for a car that has not changed in 7 full racing seasons) . However, i notcied that the extra grip would roll the car more, LSD started to give out giving wheel spin on some 80MPH turn exits. I think with a different set up, (less bar, stiffer springs) I could have seen more of a difference.
anyway, Kip's group did suspension changes to optimize for the toyos and it took a few times to get proficient on with them. even out of the gate, with some testing, he was 4 seconds slower. eventutally, with a new set, adrenalin, more practice with fast cars around him, etc, he was only fractionally slower with the toyos for one golden lap.
mk
Shaved WOULD have been much better, along with some set up changes.
I did just the opposite. my car seems to be ok on toyos. (its not really optimized as I maxed out my settings many years ago and would like it to be stiffer), But, when I went to the hoosier, it was noticeably better, but times were only slightly better ( .25seconds in my book is a big differnce for a car that has not changed in 7 full racing seasons) . However, i notcied that the extra grip would roll the car more, LSD started to give out giving wheel spin on some 80MPH turn exits. I think with a different set up, (less bar, stiffer springs) I could have seen more of a difference.
anyway, Kip's group did suspension changes to optimize for the toyos and it took a few times to get proficient on with them. even out of the gate, with some testing, he was 4 seconds slower. eventutally, with a new set, adrenalin, more practice with fast cars around him, etc, he was only fractionally slower with the toyos for one golden lap.
mk
Mark it was my home track Le Circuit Mont Tremblant. New sticker R 888s versus stickers Hoosiers. When I said I hated the Toyos, I meant it. I was running 1:54s or the same as I run on the OEM street tires!!!!
I happily ditched the Toyos and went back to the R6s and on Stickers ran 1:48s.
The point which I think you missed was that my car is set up for the Hoosiers. I will allow for the fact that full tread 888s suck (to quote Dave) and shaved they might have been better.
Perhaps shaved and with a set up more to their liking I would have done better. Again the point is that back to back tests with a car optimized for one tire versus another are not useful. Had my car been optimized for the Toyos and had the Toyos been shaved, the results might have been closer.
Since then I have switched to Michelin Yellows which after more camber and a bit less toe prove to be one second faster than the Hoosiers and to my surprise more consistent.
Regards,
I happily ditched the Toyos and went back to the R6s and on Stickers ran 1:48s.
The point which I think you missed was that my car is set up for the Hoosiers. I will allow for the fact that full tread 888s suck (to quote Dave) and shaved they might have been better.
Perhaps shaved and with a set up more to their liking I would have done better. Again the point is that back to back tests with a car optimized for one tire versus another are not useful. Had my car been optimized for the Toyos and had the Toyos been shaved, the results might have been closer.
Since then I have switched to Michelin Yellows which after more camber and a bit less toe prove to be one second faster than the Hoosiers and to my surprise more consistent.
Regards,
