Toyo vs Hoosiers vs slicks
10-13-2009, 04:10 PM
#47
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Thread Starter
I never said sicks vs toyos are only worth 1 second, I said, (if you read the posts) that slicks over hoosers are about 1 second. I also said, in this test and race, that the toyos are only marginally slower vs toyos for one lap, then then they are worth in the range of 1-1.5 seconds slower vs hoosers. simple math, means slicks vs toyos would be worth near 2 seconds.
Now, I dont know if its 75hp for the cup car vs WCGT, but whatever the major differences are with aero, power and etc, it would be proved that they counter acted each other since Sofro won both races in one of each cars with near the same time over all. what do you think all those bits are worth?I bet the best the WC GT porsche could do on those slicks would be a 1:27, 2 seconds slower than the RSR. (thats a guess). remember when Henzler ran a back up car against Liddel in WCGT (or visa versa) . the cup car on toyos was only 1 seconds slower than the WCGT car. that was a while ago, but that was an interesting statistic , or data point as well.
I dont know about you, but finding 1-2 seconds in suspension and tires is usually easier than just bolting on power. I saw 1-1.5 seconds difference for only a 60hp increase on my racer. If the cup cars are 370rwhp (435 flywheel)as I have heard, the WCGT cars are 430rwhp? (or 505flywheel hp). I dont think the hp differences are that much, but they certainly could be. I remember an ALMS RSR dyno'ed that showed 440rwhp, but it was without restrictors, but that was several years ago.
Not trying to argue the point, just providing some interesting statistics.
Now, I dont know if its 75hp for the cup car vs WCGT, but whatever the major differences are with aero, power and etc, it would be proved that they counter acted each other since Sofro won both races in one of each cars with near the same time over all. what do you think all those bits are worth?I bet the best the WC GT porsche could do on those slicks would be a 1:27, 2 seconds slower than the RSR. (thats a guess). remember when Henzler ran a back up car against Liddel in WCGT (or visa versa) . the cup car on toyos was only 1 seconds slower than the WCGT car. that was a while ago, but that was an interesting statistic , or data point as well.
I dont know about you, but finding 1-2 seconds in suspension and tires is usually easier than just bolting on power. I saw 1-1.5 seconds difference for only a 60hp increase on my racer. If the cup cars are 370rwhp (435 flywheel)as I have heard, the WCGT cars are 430rwhp? (or 505flywheel hp). I dont think the hp differences are that much, but they certainly could be. I remember an ALMS RSR dyno'ed that showed 440rwhp, but it was without restrictors, but that was several years ago.
Not trying to argue the point, just providing some interesting statistics.
So slicks are hardly worth anything over Toyo's but enough to make up 75 hp, bigger tires, bigger wings, and rsr suspension bits?
You are agreeing that slicks are worth 2 or 2.5 seconds but you started this whole thread on the premise they are only worth ~1 second over toyos.
You are agreeing that slicks are worth 2 or 2.5 seconds but you started this whole thread on the premise they are only worth ~1 second over toyos.
10-13-2009, 04:56 PM
#50
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Mark, my take on this is that a so called back to back test is meaningless between an R6 and an R888. My car is nicely set up for the R6. I tried a set of R 888s and hated them. I ran them initially at the the then suggested pressures of high 30's low 30's. measuring with my pyrometer, I ended up with 34 lbs hot as best. I also corded the inside edge. As it all turns out the Toyo R 888 has a super stiff side wall and does not like a lot of negative camber. On the other hand the Hoosier and the Michelin Race Slick like lots of negative camber.
Any test back to back will favor the tire the car is set up for. If optimized for the Toyo, the R6 will underperform and a real slick even more so. This makes the test results questionable.
Ideally you'd need two cars each with a set up optimized for the given tire and run sessions with the same driver. Even then, track conditions will change and the driver may be more at ease with one tire than the other. Still, it is very difficult to accept that a fairly heavy treaded tire like the 888 could come close to a Hoosier or true race slick. In my experience the difference is about 6 seconds a lap from the R6 to the 888 but that was with a car set up for the Hoosier on a 1:48 lap.
Best,
Any test back to back will favor the tire the car is set up for. If optimized for the Toyo, the R6 will underperform and a real slick even more so. This makes the test results questionable.
Ideally you'd need two cars each with a set up optimized for the given tire and run sessions with the same driver. Even then, track conditions will change and the driver may be more at ease with one tire than the other. Still, it is very difficult to accept that a fairly heavy treaded tire like the 888 could come close to a Hoosier or true race slick. In my experience the difference is about 6 seconds a lap from the R6 to the 888 but that was with a car set up for the Hoosier on a 1:48 lap.
Best,
10-13-2009, 05:13 PM
#51
I understand that a compromise setup may result in similar lap times (within a second or two) since both tires will be working outside optimum. But, have you also run/seen the test where a car was optimized for slicks, got a lap time, and then ran R-888s on that setup? Also, I think it is apples/oranges to assume that running a compromise setup results in the same performance degredation for both sets of tires. That is, optimizing for R888 may yield another .5 seconds/lap, whereas optimizing for slicks may yield 2 seconds. You just can't tell.
And, interesting statistics aside, losing 2-2.5 seconds a lap in a 20 lap race puts you 40-50+ seconds back from the winner - who was on slicks the whole time no doubt
-td
And, interesting statistics aside, losing 2-2.5 seconds a lap in a 20 lap race puts you 40-50+ seconds back from the winner - who was on slicks the whole time no doubt
-td
10-13-2009, 05:22 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
I understand that a compromise setup may result in similar lap times (within a second or two) since both tires will be working outside optimum. But, have you also run/seen the test where a car was optimized for slicks, got a lap time, and then ran R-888s on that setup?
-td
-td
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10-13-2009, 06:37 PM
#53
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mark you can't just formulate guesstimates on lap times. also sofronas didn't win the patron gt3 cup race because he's not in the series! bobby faieta did. He was running 130s and 129s in gt3 cup. guy cosmo qualified @ 129.5 and the GT2 RSRs were qualifying 123's (except when neiman drove his car to a 128 qualifying lap)
please google search to get the correct info.
http://www.americanlemans.com/index_results.php#
please google search to get the correct info.
http://www.americanlemans.com/index_results.php#
10-13-2009, 07:44 PM
#54
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Thread Starter
Bob, with all due respect, 6 seconds? So, with my car,(the way it was in '08) barely above touring WC specs for weight and power, I would be able to wax the entire WCGT field by gaining 6 seconds over my RA1 times and even if the R888s were 1 second slower, you can see that thats a little beyond extreme if the only change was a set of R6 Hoosiers. 
Now, I mentioned that Kip also drove the R888s the first time to a tune of over 2-3 seconds slower. He hated them too! So that makes VRs and everyone else's point, right? Wrong, he DID change the set up, his driving style and was able to get to 2 seconds of his Hoosier time. Then, with more practice and time on the the tire, and THEN a brand new set, was able to equal the hoosier times. Anyone that knows him , that car, and his times at laguna can see this is a more than valid test. 130.2 is not an easy time with 225 front tires! yes, he hated them at first. Another fast racer friend did the same test and was 4 seconds off the pace. He didnt want to go though the learning curve and totally reset his car to deal with the differences. This kind of change will be car dependent as well.
Anyway, I also mentioned that after that hot lap, the tires did fall off to a steady, 1 to 1.5 seconds slower and that is not that far off popular opinion.
Put sofro on a set of hoosiers and have him run a hot lap, and that car would maybe run 1:28.2, a full second faster. a set of slicks, maybe 1 to 1.5 seconds faster again, being tuned for it, getting in the 1:26.xx range, not far off the ALMS flying lizard GT3RS.
so, this all goes back to the fact that there are many factors involved.
As a side note, NO ONE is suggesting a full tread test here and I dont think anyone has assumed that. If so, sure, all bets are off. thats like a real rain tire and times would certainly fall way off
mk
By the way, what track was the set up for the R6s and the 1:48 lap?
Now, I mentioned that Kip also drove the R888s the first time to a tune of over 2-3 seconds slower. He hated them too!
So that makes VRs and everyone else's point, right? Wrong, he DID change the set up, his driving style and was able to get to 2 seconds of his Hoosier time. Then, with more practice and time on the the tire, and THEN a brand new set, was able to equal the hoosier times. Anyone that knows him , that car, and his times at laguna can see this is a more than valid test. 130.2 is not an easy time with 225 front tires! yes, he hated them at first. Another fast racer friend did the same test and was 4 seconds off the pace. He didnt want to go though the learning curve and totally reset his car to deal with the differences. This kind of change will be car dependent as well.Anyway, I also mentioned that after that hot lap, the tires did fall off to a steady, 1 to 1.5 seconds slower and that is not that far off popular opinion.
Put sofro on a set of hoosiers and have him run a hot lap, and that car would maybe run 1:28.2, a full second faster. a set of slicks, maybe 1 to 1.5 seconds faster again, being tuned for it, getting in the 1:26.xx range, not far off the ALMS flying lizard GT3RS.
so, this all goes back to the fact that there are many factors involved.
As a side note, NO ONE is suggesting a full tread test here and I dont think anyone has assumed that. If so, sure, all bets are off. thats like a real rain tire and times would certainly fall way off
mk
By the way, what track was the set up for the R6s and the 1:48 lap?
Mark, my take on this is that a so called back to back test is meaningless between an R6 and an R888. My car is nicely set up for the R6. I tried a set of R 888s and hated them. I ran them initially at the the then suggested pressures of high 30's low 30's. measuring with my pyrometer, I ended up with 34 lbs hot as best. I also corded the inside edge. As it all turns out the Toyo R 888 has a super stiff side wall and does not like a lot of negative camber. On the other hand the Hoosier and the Michelin Race Slick like lots of negative camber.
Any test back to back will favor the tire the car is set up for. If optimized for the Toyo, the R6 will underperform and a real slick even more so. This makes the test results questionable.
Ideally you'd need two cars each with a set up optimized for the given tire and run sessions with the same driver. Even then, track conditions will change and the driver may be more at ease with one tire than the other. Still, it is very difficult to accept that a fairly heavy treaded tire like the 888 could come close to a Hoosier or true race slick. In my experience the difference is about 6 seconds a lap from the R6 to the 888 but that was with a car set up for the Hoosier on a 1:48 lap.
Best,
Any test back to back will favor the tire the car is set up for. If optimized for the Toyo, the R6 will underperform and a real slick even more so. This makes the test results questionable.
Ideally you'd need two cars each with a set up optimized for the given tire and run sessions with the same driver. Even then, track conditions will change and the driver may be more at ease with one tire than the other. Still, it is very difficult to accept that a fairly heavy treaded tire like the 888 could come close to a Hoosier or true race slick. In my experience the difference is about 6 seconds a lap from the R6 to the 888 but that was with a car set up for the Hoosier on a 1:48 lap.
Best,
Last edited by mark kibort; 10-13-2009 at 08:08 PM.
10-13-2009, 07:49 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I was talking about the cup cars running within the ALMS race. ALMS-C
Did I say "Patron Cup"?
You didnt know sofro was running a cup car in another race that weekend besides WCGT in another porsche running slicks?
And in the ALMS Race, much of the hot laps were run in the 1:24s to 1:25s by the RSRs.
Did I say "Patron Cup"?
You didnt know sofro was running a cup car in another race that weekend besides WCGT in another porsche running slicks?
And in the ALMS Race, much of the hot laps were run in the 1:24s to 1:25s by the RSRs.
mark you can't just formulate guesstimates on lap times. also sofronas didn't win the patron gt3 cup race because he's not in the series! bobby faieta did. He was running 130s and 129s in gt3 cup. guy cosmo qualified @ 129.5 and the GT2 RSRs were qualifying 123's (except when neiman drove his car to a 128 qualifying lap)
please google search to get the correct info.
http://www.americanlemans.com/index_results.php#
please google search to get the correct info.
http://www.americanlemans.com/index_results.php#
10-13-2009, 07:59 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
yes, agreed. And, this team did some testing with the R888s and optimize setting accordingly. that is the reason they dropped from 2 seconds off the hoosiers with small changes, to near the same time as a hoosier with the larger changes and the driver's increased comfort with the new style of driving the R888s require. Yes, I see the car every race weekend going back and forth between Hoosier A and Rs and Slicks . They make the changes that time allows. for all 12 races, the times have been about 1 second apart at the tracks we see. Thats not to say that those differnces wouldnt be more or less at other tracks, like Willowsprings or Sebring.
With your last comment , I hope you are not thinking that I'm comparing the R888s as a alternative to slicks. the point is how good they can be if they are driven right and as was mentioned, the car is set up correctly for them.
I also agree that set up is important. I too didnt see too much different between R6s A6s and RA1s, but they did feel better, though the lap times were only slightly better. Other factors could be more dominant there too. size of tire, weight of car, track, driver, etc. I felt very comfortable driving to the edge on both tires.
With your last comment , I hope you are not thinking that I'm comparing the R888s as a alternative to slicks. the point is how good they can be if they are driven right and as was mentioned, the car is set up correctly for them.
I also agree that set up is important. I too didnt see too much different between R6s A6s and RA1s, but they did feel better, though the lap times were only slightly better. Other factors could be more dominant there too. size of tire, weight of car, track, driver, etc. I felt very comfortable driving to the edge on both tires.
I understand that a compromise setup may result in similar lap times (within a second or two) since both tires will be working outside optimum. But, have you also run/seen the test where a car was optimized for slicks, got a lap time, and then ran R-888s on that setup? Also, I think it is apples/oranges to assume that running a compromise setup results in the same performance degredation for both sets of tires. That is, optimizing for R888 may yield another .5 seconds/lap, whereas optimizing for slicks may yield 2 seconds. You just can't tell.
And, interesting statistics aside, losing 2-2.5 seconds a lap in a 20 lap race puts you 40-50+ seconds back from the winner - who was on slicks the whole time no doubt
-td
And, interesting statistics aside, losing 2-2.5 seconds a lap in a 20 lap race puts you 40-50+ seconds back from the winner - who was on slicks the whole time no doubt
-td
10-13-2009, 08:46 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Oy vey. 
You are missing the point, Mark. The point is not that they got more out of the 888's. That is a given, as the WC folks have show us is doable with enough testing and setup changes. The point is that the driver was not getting out of the slicks all he could have.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
You are missing the point, Mark. The point is not that they got more out of the 888's. That is a given, as the WC folks have show us is doable with enough testing and setup changes. The point is that the driver was not getting out of the slicks all he could have.
Professional Racing and Driving Coach
10-13-2009, 08:53 PM
#58
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Well, that shows that many, many people cant drive them effectively either.
Trust me, to JClark's comment, Ive seen Sofro in a club BMW run better than WC touring times at Laguna in an S54 powered beautiful GMG racer with more power but not the trick suspension stuff, that both he and his co-founder drove. (James was a couple of seconds faster). They ran 1:36s in their race. Trust me. slap R888s on that car, and I would bet BIG money that he could run 1:38s NO problem. A lot of what I see out there with issues with tires and car is the driver. Would you bet big money that slapping on a set of R88s would cause 4-6 seconds? The point here is too many folks toss around a second here and there for all these kind of changes. some are interelated, but if you add all the things that I could add to my car that add 1 second, I would be running the Fastest WCGT time ever run, and its a street car with 20year old..... yeah, you have heard it all before, I know.
motons -1-2 seconds
proper alingment -1 second
corner balancing -1 second
randy pobst driving -1-2 seconds
toyos vs hoosiers -2-6 seconds
ligher wheels and tires- 1 second
bigger brakes - 1 second
better splitter- 1 second
all solid bushings , remove the 20 year old stuff - 1 second
Suddenly, a 1:38 car at laguna with the low end of the hyped mods above, starts to run ALMS GT2 times! Sorry folks, that aint going to happen. But, what will happen, is a better feel of control when things go wrong, confidence off line, through traffic, better consistancy and predictability, better tire wear, abiltiy to change set ups for conditions, etc.
Anyway, at least, the information of the NSX with 3 types of different tires and times on a track that is frequented by him, is interesting and informative.
Trust me, to JClark's comment, Ive seen Sofro in a club BMW run better than WC touring times at Laguna in an S54 powered beautiful GMG racer with more power but not the trick suspension stuff, that both he and his co-founder drove. (James was a couple of seconds faster). They ran 1:36s in their race. Trust me. slap R888s on that car, and I would bet BIG money that he could run 1:38s NO problem. A lot of what I see out there with issues with tires and car is the driver. Would you bet big money that slapping on a set of R88s would cause 4-6 seconds? The point here is too many folks toss around a second here and there for all these kind of changes. some are interelated, but if you add all the things that I could add to my car that add 1 second, I would be running the Fastest WCGT time ever run, and its a street car with 20year old..... yeah, you have heard it all before, I know.
motons -1-2 seconds
proper alingment -1 second
corner balancing -1 second
randy pobst driving -1-2 seconds
toyos vs hoosiers -2-6 seconds
ligher wheels and tires- 1 second
bigger brakes - 1 second
better splitter- 1 second
all solid bushings , remove the 20 year old stuff - 1 second
Suddenly, a 1:38 car at laguna with the low end of the hyped mods above, starts to run ALMS GT2 times!
Sorry folks, that aint going to happen. But, what will happen, is a better feel of control when things go wrong, confidence off line, through traffic, better consistancy and predictability, better tire wear, abiltiy to change set ups for conditions, etc.Anyway, at least, the information of the NSX with 3 types of different tires and times on a track that is frequented by him, is interesting and informative.
I have. That was what we did with the 996 Cup car for the first half of one of the 2 days. To be succinct, it SUCKED on 888's, partly due to grip & partly due to aligment, as Bob Rouleau & I discussed in previous posts. Many, many seconds off at a track similar to a mix of TWS and MSR in nature.
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10-13-2009, 09:02 PM
#59
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Thread Starter
This you dont know. That car has slicks, but 225s up front is a challenge for them and they have done things to help the car with its handling. This is a small time, but serious team. They have Motec, a guy that builds cars that can drive as well, and was part of the PD cunningham NSX effort back in '01.
Having run the entire season on new slicks and slowly progressing with times, due to suspension changes, and running with guys that have even more capable hardware, shows he is driving hard. Ive seen the in-car. He is pushing hard. Is it the theoretical limit? who kows. probalby not. But the point is he is one of the better drivers around and is very consistant and fast. And we have a lot of data to support the comparisons. personally, I find it interesting and believeable. I especially like the fact that he hated the tires at first, calling them "Garbage" and then with a lot of work, ends up running near his fastest Hoosier time! Now, again, that was one lap on a qual set of NEW tires. we conceide that after that, we are talking 1-1.5 seconds slower. I dont think its that much of a streatch to see 1 second differnce at laguna between slicks and new Hoosiers. Again, at other tracks, with other cars, probably yes there could be more of a difference. And that my rolling eye'd friend, is what racing is all about. You dont know it all, so give it up pal, and enjoy the ride.
Having run the entire season on new slicks and slowly progressing with times, due to suspension changes, and running with guys that have even more capable hardware, shows he is driving hard. Ive seen the in-car. He is pushing hard. Is it the theoretical limit? who kows. probalby not. But the point is he is one of the better drivers around and is very consistant and fast. And we have a lot of data to support the comparisons. personally, I find it interesting and believeable. I especially like the fact that he hated the tires at first, calling them "Garbage" and then with a lot of work, ends up running near his fastest Hoosier time! Now, again, that was one lap on a qual set of NEW tires. we conceide that after that, we are talking 1-1.5 seconds slower. I dont think its that much of a streatch to see 1 second differnce at laguna between slicks and new Hoosiers. Again, at other tracks, with other cars, probably yes there could be more of a difference. And that my rolling eye'd friend, is what racing is all about. You dont know it all, so give it up pal, and enjoy the ride.
Oy vey.
You are missing the point, Mark. The point is not that they got more out of the 888's. That is a given, as the WC folks have show us is doable with enough testing and setup changes. The point is that the driver was not getting out of the slicks all he could have.
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You are missing the point, Mark. The point is not that they got more out of the 888's. That is a given, as the WC folks have show us is doable with enough testing and setup changes. The point is that the driver was not getting out of the slicks all he could have.
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10-13-2009, 09:35 PM
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Trust me, to JClark's comment, Ive seen Sofro in a club BMW run better than WC touring times at Laguna in an S54 powered beautiful GMG racer with more power but not the trick suspension stuff, that both he and his co-founder drove. (James was a couple of seconds faster). They ran 1:36s in their race. Trust me. slap R888s on that car, and I would bet BIG money that he could run 1:38s NO problem.
Just to recap, everyone who has done a back to back, same day, same car, same driver, optimized setup test of DOTR tires has concluded the same result that directly contradicts yours. You have not done a proper objective test, but you 'would bet' that they are all wrong based on lap times 'with this car with a little more hp but a little less suspension' blah blah.
Please come up with some hard actual evidence, without all the usual MK benchracing variables, and I'm sure everyone will be happy to discuss the results.
I've done those tests, so I already know the answer. Actually I dont know why I posted this, because it'd be great if you convinced everyone else that the bottom of the barrel DOTR was the best choice.
Oh and I'm convinced you work for or have tons of stock in Toyo.