Toyo vs Hoosiers vs slicks
10-12-2009 | 01:33 AM
#16
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why re invent the wheel. he uses brand new stickers every time he hits the track. What I will say, is that even though the brand new toyos are about a 1 second off slicks (Yoks) and only .25sec off hoosiers, it seems that they are only good for that time for one lap. 
. after that, they fall off about a second or so.(at least for the WCGT guys that are running about 4-5 seconds faster than the group I race with.
Personally, ive run hoosers A series and toyos back to back and i can run almost as fast with the toyos, but the Hoosiers are stickier. However, I didnt do any suspension changes and that could be worth some time for sure.
. after that, they fall off about a second or so.(at least for the WCGT guys that are running about 4-5 seconds faster than the group I race with.Personally, ive run hoosers A series and toyos back to back and i can run almost as fast with the toyos, but the Hoosiers are stickier. However, I didnt do any suspension changes and that could be worth some time for sure.
10-12-2009 | 01:36 AM
#17
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Willow is a little different animal. Turn 8 and 9 are all about grip and seconds can be made or lost there for sure. Certainly, James, in no way would be running 4 seconds faster at Laguna. (1:29.xx vs a 1:25 on slicks?)
As another data point, James Sofronas says a 2008 WC GT 911 is about 4 seconds a lap slower at Willow Springs on R888's than Michellin slicks:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/g...joy-video.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/g...joy-video.html
10-12-2009 | 01:53 AM
#18
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Actually, Kip is good and he runs slicks every weekend with us. He has 100s of race laps at laguna and is very consistant. 1:29.2 on slicks. 1:29.8 on hoosiers (A's and R's), and now recently 1:30.2 on toyos. similar to what I saw.
He is very good at adapting quicky and driving fast with a number of different set ups. What he did was find a few things he could change between sessions to adapt to the slicks or DOTs. With the R888s, there were things like shock settings that were changed as well as spring rates to best utilize the toyo DOT tire. Keep in mind, he makes the change several times per day, so its a pretty good comparison, expecially knowing what we do about his driving ability.
Now, as far as heat cycling to death, the word is still out. these guy beat the snot out of the tires in 2 sessions, runnning a straight 50minin practice and some guys got 25 laps, plus in . The next practice with no tire changes, times were even faster. IN fact, even in the touring group, no one ever saw a time as fast as some saw in the second practice session. Anway, they are an aquired taste and probably depends on driving style than most of the set ups you can adjust for . Another data point, the compound is supposed to be identical to the RA1. a second issue is the rumor that everyone (or some) are using the tires with 2007 marked on them. some say that some of the tires are older than others . the 09s being newer might have a distinct advantage , just havin sat around for a longer time. It was a contraversy in the paddock today.
If you look at the times, they were not that off the times 2 years ago last the WC visited Laguna on RA1s. In talking to the drivers I know, there is no much difference in the new tire. slightly slower, but hard to quantify.
mk
He is very good at adapting quicky and driving fast with a number of different set ups. What he did was find a few things he could change between sessions to adapt to the slicks or DOTs. With the R888s, there were things like shock settings that were changed as well as spring rates to best utilize the toyo DOT tire. Keep in mind, he makes the change several times per day, so its a pretty good comparison, expecially knowing what we do about his driving ability.
Now, as far as heat cycling to death, the word is still out. these guy beat the snot out of the tires in 2 sessions, runnning a straight 50minin practice and some guys got 25 laps, plus in . The next practice with no tire changes, times were even faster. IN fact, even in the touring group, no one ever saw a time as fast as some saw in the second practice session. Anway, they are an aquired taste and probably depends on driving style than most of the set ups you can adjust for . Another data point, the compound is supposed to be identical to the RA1. a second issue is the rumor that everyone (or some) are using the tires with 2007 marked on them. some say that some of the tires are older than others . the 09s being newer might have a distinct advantage , just havin sat around for a longer time. It was a contraversy in the paddock today.
If you look at the times, they were not that off the times 2 years ago last the WC visited Laguna on RA1s. In talking to the drivers I know, there is no much difference in the new tire. slightly slower, but hard to quantify.
mk
First, IMO, he (Kip) could probably be faster on slicks. Slicks are THAT good. But they really require a significantly optimized set-up and very precise driving to extract maximum performance from them. Many folks who run them do not make these changes, and then are surprised they aren't much faster than R6's. 
Second, the 888's have a much stiffer sidewall than the RA1's, so they get alot hotter than RA1's pulling the same slip angles as the RA1's could, and this has been their Achilles heel: they go away more easily....then their new compounding causes them to heat cycle to death way before they cord in many cases. This is directly opposite the RA1's behavior. So I suspect some of the set-up and driving changes the successful teams employ are camber settings that take advantage of the stiffer sidewalls, toe settings that take advantage of the stiffer sidewalls for crisp turn-in while keeping heat build-up to a minimum, and line changes that do not use quite as much slip angle. In addition, I suspect that the 888's are essentially useless after a race at this pace for 50 minutes, whereas the R6's could probably go again, with only a slight degradation of pace.
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Second, the 888's have a much stiffer sidewall than the RA1's, so they get alot hotter than RA1's pulling the same slip angles as the RA1's could, and this has been their Achilles heel: they go away more easily....then their new compounding causes them to heat cycle to death way before they cord in many cases. This is directly opposite the RA1's behavior. So I suspect some of the set-up and driving changes the successful teams employ are camber settings that take advantage of the stiffer sidewalls, toe settings that take advantage of the stiffer sidewalls for crisp turn-in while keeping heat build-up to a minimum, and line changes that do not use quite as much slip angle. In addition, I suspect that the 888's are essentially useless after a race at this pace for 50 minutes, whereas the R6's could probably go again, with only a slight degradation of pace.
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Last edited by mark kibort; 10-12-2009 at 03:21 AM.
10-12-2009 | 09:44 AM
#19
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I have a set of 888s on a 0 hour track car for shake down. What camber and toe settings do work for 888s? stiffer sidewalls = less camber. How about slip angles, more toe out in front to compensate?
10-12-2009 | 10:08 AM
#20
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Mark, I think that it shows your inexperience if you think for a minute that a DOT R tire can have as much grip (or nearly as much) as a RACING SLICK. The two are not comparable, as VR pointed out, the slip angles are vastly different, and perhaps you or your driver don't have the skills to adapt to a slick and maximize their potential.
Last edited by Geoffrey; 10-12-2009 at 11:30 AM.
10-12-2009 | 11:57 AM
#21
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I think you are spot on. To his credit Mark did not say they were dead = but were closer than we might expect. He seems to have drawn this entirely from one datapoint. This sample is counter to the many other samples that, depending on the track, have more of a 4 + second delta.
10-12-2009 | 12:02 PM
#22
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Second, the 888's have a much stiffer sidewall than the RA1's, so they get alot hotter than RA1's pulling the same slip angles as the RA1's could, and this has been their Achilles heel: they go away more easily....then their new compounding causes them to heat cycle to death way before they cord in many cases. This is directly opposite the RA1's behavior. So I suspect some of the set-up and driving changes the successful teams employ are camber settings that take advantage of the stiffer sidewalls, toe settings that take advantage of the stiffer sidewalls for crisp turn-in while keeping heat build-up to a minimum, and line changes that do not use quite as much slip angle. In addition, I suspect that the 888's are essentially useless after a race at this pace for 50 minutes, whereas the R6's could probably go again, with only a slight degradation of pace.
Note this was for the same day with in maybe 1-2 hrs of each other. (Guy was swapping Toyos for hoosiers between sessions when running 944 spec and GTS on the same day).
Last edited by M758; 10-12-2009 at 12:45 PM.
10-12-2009 | 12:17 PM
#23
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I've had tracks change 2-4 seconds within 24 hours. Your logic has too many holes, too many variables. If I ignore the same factors, I can find data that shows all seasons being faster than slicks.
10-12-2009 | 12:54 PM
#24
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Mark, I think that it shows your inexperience if you think for a minute that a DOT R tire can have as much grip (or nearly as much) as a RACING SLICK. The two are not comparable, as VR pointed out, the slip angles are vastly different, and perhaps you or your driver don't have the skills to adapt to a slick and maximize their potential.
10-12-2009 | 02:43 PM
#27
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10-12-2009 | 07:25 PM
#28
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Actually, Kip is good and he runs slicks every weekend with us. He has 100s of race laps at laguna and is very consistant. 1:29.2 on slicks. 1:29.8 on hoosiers (A's and R's), and now recently 1:30.2 on toyos. similar to what I saw.
He is very good at adapting quicky and driving fast with a number of different set ups. What he did was find a few things he could change between sessions to adapt to the slicks or DOTs. With the R888s, there were things like shock settings that were changed as well as spring rates to best utilize the toyo DOT tire. Keep in mind, he makes the change several times per day, so its a pretty good comparison, expecially knowing what we do about his driving ability.
Now, as far as heat cycling to death, the word is still out. these guy beat the snot out of the tires in 2 sessions, runnning a straight 50minin practice and some guys got 25 laps, plus in . The next practice with no tire changes, times were even faster. IN fact, even in the touring group, no one ever saw a time as fast as some saw in the second practice session. Anway, they are an aquired taste and probably depends on driving style than most of the set ups you can adjust for . Another data point, the compound is supposed to be identical to the RA1. a second issue is the rumor that everyone (or some) are using the tires with 2007 marked on them. some say that some of the tires are older than others . the 09s being newer might have a distinct advantage , just havin sat around for a longer time. It was a contraversy in the paddock today.
If you look at the times, they were not that off the times 2 years ago last the WC visited Laguna on RA1s. In talking to the drivers I know, there is no much difference in the new tire. slightly slower, but hard to quantify.
mk
He is very good at adapting quicky and driving fast with a number of different set ups. What he did was find a few things he could change between sessions to adapt to the slicks or DOTs. With the R888s, there were things like shock settings that were changed as well as spring rates to best utilize the toyo DOT tire. Keep in mind, he makes the change several times per day, so its a pretty good comparison, expecially knowing what we do about his driving ability.
Now, as far as heat cycling to death, the word is still out. these guy beat the snot out of the tires in 2 sessions, runnning a straight 50minin practice and some guys got 25 laps, plus in . The next practice with no tire changes, times were even faster. IN fact, even in the touring group, no one ever saw a time as fast as some saw in the second practice session. Anway, they are an aquired taste and probably depends on driving style than most of the set ups you can adjust for . Another data point, the compound is supposed to be identical to the RA1. a second issue is the rumor that everyone (or some) are using the tires with 2007 marked on them. some say that some of the tires are older than others . the 09s being newer might have a distinct advantage , just havin sat around for a longer time. It was a contraversy in the paddock today.
If you look at the times, they were not that off the times 2 years ago last the WC visited Laguna on RA1s. In talking to the drivers I know, there is no much difference in the new tire. slightly slower, but hard to quantify.
mk
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10-12-2009 | 08:14 PM
#29
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yes same days, same temps within seconds of each other! He runs 2 sessions per day with slicks and usually back to back with DOTs for 2 sessions as well. He has been doing this all season long so far with us in SCCA racing.
we never see differences that great at Laguna with any of us. Its one of those tracks where there is not one single dependant factor. Just like in WC, without major car changes, the times are always with in a second on race day, and have been for many years now. ( the only thing that has been worth a consistant full second has been the redesign of the track and repaving back in 05)
again, the point with his experience is that slicks are 1 second faster,toyos are near as fast as hoosiers, but for only that first lap, then they might be 1-1.5 seconds slower.
we never see differences that great at Laguna with any of us. Its one of those tracks where there is not one single dependant factor. Just like in WC, without major car changes, the times are always with in a second on race day, and have been for many years now. ( the only thing that has been worth a consistant full second has been the redesign of the track and repaving back in 05)
again, the point with his experience is that slicks are 1 second faster,toyos are near as fast as hoosiers, but for only that first lap, then they might be 1-1.5 seconds slower.
10-12-2009 | 08:27 PM
#30
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And again, I submit that he was leaving seconds on the table with slicks, if they were in decent shape. Geoffrey is 100% correct.
Yes, they were in good shape. again, always brand new sets of slicks or DOTs. Thats why this test or example is so relevant to the discussion. We all might know what it takes to run a 1:30.2 at laguna. He did it on hoosiers, repeatedly, and slicks were always faster chasing or beating, the transam cars in our SCCA races. He started testing 2 seconds slower with the R888s, but then after learning to drive them, got the same time as his best with hoosiers.
BUT, it was only 1 lap. generally, they were slower the rest of the session.
also, you might want to confirm that the compound is different than the RA1s Ive been told by the toyo folks that it is the sam, just different construction and the tread design. Again, the dont heat cycle out, as you suggest. WC ran two practices, for near 1 hour and these guys were beating on the tires. (combined Tourning and GT, which is a little unusual) most stayed out there and punished the tires the entire session. Second session times were faster , most on the same set of tires. race times were as fast at the end of the race as the beginning and these guys went green for the 45min straight.
I think the main take away here is, yes, you need to tune and drive accordingly.
If you dont there are not much differences between the DOT tires, but with slicks there is. no matter what the set up. Kip, on lap 3 spun on the exit of 9, basically probably the nature of the toyo during the first few laps is much different than an Hoosier A6. It will bite you if they are not to temp, and they had a caution after lap 1, so it bit him and hard. too bad, he would have probably taken 5th if he would have not made that error. He will be back next year.
mk
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Yes, they were in good shape. again, always brand new sets of slicks or DOTs. Thats why this test or example is so relevant to the discussion. We all might know what it takes to run a 1:30.2 at laguna. He did it on hoosiers, repeatedly, and slicks were always faster chasing or beating, the transam cars in our SCCA races. He started testing 2 seconds slower with the R888s, but then after learning to drive them, got the same time as his best with hoosiers.
BUT, it was only 1 lap. generally, they were slower the rest of the session.
also, you might want to confirm that the compound is different than the RA1s Ive been told by the toyo folks that it is the sam, just different construction and the tread design. Again, the dont heat cycle out, as you suggest. WC ran two practices, for near 1 hour and these guys were beating on the tires. (combined Tourning and GT, which is a little unusual) most stayed out there and punished the tires the entire session. Second session times were faster , most on the same set of tires. race times were as fast at the end of the race as the beginning and these guys went green for the 45min straight.
I think the main take away here is, yes, you need to tune and drive accordingly.
If you dont there are not much differences between the DOT tires, but with slicks there is. no matter what the set up. Kip, on lap 3 spun on the exit of 9, basically probably the nature of the toyo during the first few laps is much different than an Hoosier A6. It will bite you if they are not to temp, and they had a caution after lap 1, so it bit him and hard. too bad, he would have probably taken 5th if he would have not made that error. He will be back next year.
mk
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