View Poll Results: What should instructors have to pay?
Full price
1
0.59%
Reduced price
79
46.47%
Free registration
90
52.94%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll
Should instructors have to pay for DE?
09-09-2009, 05:57 PM
#61
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So what do you do when you have 55 instructors sign up, and only 38 students? Or what happens when you have a lot of "free' instructors, but not enough 'paying' students/solo to cover the cost of the event? Who's going to pay for the track?
At the upcoming Carolinas Region DE, if we gave ALL the instructors signed up a fully free pass, the region would lose a lot of money - then there would be no more DE's.
Yeah, Sounds like a good plan to me!
At the upcoming Carolinas Region DE, if we gave ALL the instructors signed up a fully free pass, the region would lose a lot of money - then there would be no more DE's.
Yeah, Sounds like a good plan to me!
Stepping back a bit, I believe there is a fundamental difference of cost structure down here compared with east coast and west coast tracks. East & west coasters are conditioned to pay through the **** for DE's because most of your tracks are outlandishly priced. Whereas in the South and Southwest, track rentals are much more (relatively) reasonably priced. For example, TWS this weekend will cost ~$18,000 all in for TWO days, including workers, EMS, tow truck, etc etc etc. Try that at a coastal track other than Roebling or Willow Springs.
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09-09-2009, 06:02 PM
#62
Drifting
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I don't think that is a problem with Lonestar Region DE's. In the almost 3 years I've been attending, they've almost all sold out. If a region is struggling to break even because they aren't getting enough paying students, I can see where that would definitely be a problem. But then I'd first want to know what is causing a DE to only attract 38 paying students.
09-09-2009, 06:10 PM
#63
Drifting
So what do you do when you have 55 instructors sign up, and only 38 students? Or what happens when you have a lot of "free' instructors, but not enough 'paying' students/solo to cover the cost of the event? Who's going to pay for the track?
At the upcoming Carolinas Region DE, if we gave ALL the instructors signed up a fully free pass, the region would lose a lot of money - then there would be no more DE's.
Yeah, Sounds like a good plan to me!
At the upcoming Carolinas Region DE, if we gave ALL the instructors signed up a fully free pass, the region would lose a lot of money - then there would be no more DE's.
Yeah, Sounds like a good plan to me!
09-09-2009, 06:14 PM
#64
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So there are significant differences between geographic regions in tack rental costs, number of tracks available, quality of the tracks, etc. As usual, a one size fits all answer to this question doesn't work.
09-09-2009, 06:17 PM
#65
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Whether an instructor should pay or not depends on your cost model. If instructors don't pay, you have to charge students more because at the end of the day the track doesn't care if you are an instructor or a student. As an event organizer, I believe the reduced cost model works best for us. I instruct in the DC metro area as does Paul; although we apparently disagree. In the end we have to pay for the track and the flaggers. When I instruct for FATT, I attend the event for free and generally have two or even three students during the day. As an instructor I prefer the low fee and only one student.
As an organizer, I have tracked registration for several seasons in a row... It also appears that the no show rate is highest when there is no fee. Also, if we did not charge instructors, we would have to charge students more to end up in the Black. Those who are now instructors for us have benefitted by the reduced cost as students.
We also maintain one student per instructor as a guideline; although an instructor may ask for more then one student. Generally we don't have instructors complaining about the cost to instruct. We are a social club and it is clear that people are not out for the finacial reward or cost avoidance. At our last VIR event, we had 10 instructors attend to instruct only. We also provide lunches and have drawings at instructor meetings for small prizes like driving gloves, pyrometers, tire gauges, etc., We then have year end awards to recognize those who have volunteered their time for the club. Some of us are comped for the events because we spend many hours during the season registering, planning, and responding to queries.
As an organizer, I have tracked registration for several seasons in a row... It also appears that the no show rate is highest when there is no fee. Also, if we did not charge instructors, we would have to charge students more to end up in the Black. Those who are now instructors for us have benefitted by the reduced cost as students.
We also maintain one student per instructor as a guideline; although an instructor may ask for more then one student. Generally we don't have instructors complaining about the cost to instruct. We are a social club and it is clear that people are not out for the finacial reward or cost avoidance. At our last VIR event, we had 10 instructors attend to instruct only. We also provide lunches and have drawings at instructor meetings for small prizes like driving gloves, pyrometers, tire gauges, etc., We then have year end awards to recognize those who have volunteered their time for the club. Some of us are comped for the events because we spend many hours during the season registering, planning, and responding to queries.
09-09-2009, 06:33 PM
#66
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I instruct because some kind soul did it for me a few years ago and I have a debt to pay forward.
I also think instructors need to have some skin ($$) in the game to prevent no-show (no notice, not talking about normal sh@t happens stuff) which unfortunately occurs and should result in an instructor 13/13.
If I want track time I sign up for solo or race.
I also think instructors need to have some skin ($$) in the game to prevent no-show (no notice, not talking about normal sh@t happens stuff) which unfortunately occurs and should result in an instructor 13/13.
If I want track time I sign up for solo or race.
09-09-2009, 06:38 PM
#67
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This thread's become very heated !!! 
It's up to each club... to choose how they want to opperate.
It's up to us instructor's....
to decide who we want to instruct for.
IMO... That sums up the choices.
It's up to each club... to choose how they want to opperate.
It's up to us instructor's....to decide who we want to instruct for.
IMO... That sums up the choices.
09-09-2009, 06:44 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
Intersting thread. In the old days of DE..that is before Hoosiers, the events were called Driving & Flagging schools. In these events the Instructors instructed and all others manned flag stations. Rember these are PCA club events where everyone is a volunteer. Fast forward to today..we play flaggers, so the only people volunteering their time are the organizers and the Instructors. To keep costs low, most PCA regions have a reduced fee for the Instructors and those instructed pick up the remaining costs so the event can run in the black. I am a strong advicate of the 1:1 student to instructor ratio. Everyone needs to share in the work load either by volunteering or paying an extra fee for instruction. The whole club ( PCA) is based on volunteerism..do you think the Executive Council gets paid when they visit regional events and fly home on a red eye. The DE program is a great example of PCA volunteerism and we try to extend to the Instructor Group certain privilages that the other groups do not receive..such as Expanded Passing. If you do not want to volunteer to help your region or PCA in general then maybe you should ask yourself why you joined a CLUB...
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09-09-2009, 06:54 PM
#69
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09-09-2009, 07:14 PM
#70
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Hi Alan,
I thoroughly enjoyed instructing with the PCA event recently. A great time and great folks (for me that is what it is all about). In the spirit of this thread; my opinion is that instructors should not pay a fee for the event.
I think that a club wants the best instructor(s) that they can get. That does not always entail that the person be the fastest driver but certainly an accomplished one with excellent communication skills. The only way to sharpen that pencil is to do lots and lots of events as well as to make time to attend the instructor clinics. All as a volunteer because the person loves sharing what he/she knows with others and relishes in participating in their student's advancement.
If I paid full or half for all of the events that I instructed at I would certainly have less volunteerism to offer.
Just my 2 cents
Also, I think that having some skin in the game towards registration to make sure we show up is a smart move. Right now a lot of groups don't do that but they still give you a stiff amount of grief and public humiliation if you cancel. Even if you blow a motor (Curtis are you out there lol )
I thoroughly enjoyed instructing with the PCA event recently. A great time and great folks (for me that is what it is all about). In the spirit of this thread; my opinion is that instructors should not pay a fee for the event.
I think that a club wants the best instructor(s) that they can get. That does not always entail that the person be the fastest driver but certainly an accomplished one with excellent communication skills. The only way to sharpen that pencil is to do lots and lots of events as well as to make time to attend the instructor clinics. All as a volunteer because the person loves sharing what he/she knows with others and relishes in participating in their student's advancement.
If I paid full or half for all of the events that I instructed at I would certainly have less volunteerism to offer.
Just my 2 cents
Also, I think that having some skin in the game towards registration to make sure we show up is a smart move. Right now a lot of groups don't do that but they still give you a stiff amount of grief and public humiliation if you cancel. Even if you blow a motor (Curtis are you out there
lol )Whether an instructor should pay or not depends on your cost model. If instructors don't pay, you have to charge students more because at the end of the day the track doesn't care if you are an instructor or a student. As an event organizer, I believe the reduced cost model works best for us. I instruct in the DC metro area as does Paul; although we apparently disagree. In the end we have to pay for the track and the flaggers. When I instruct for FATT, I attend the event for free and generally have two or even three students during the day. As an instructor I prefer the low fee and only one student.
As an organizer, I have tracked registration for several seasons in a row... It also appears that the no show rate is highest when there is no fee. Also, if we did not charge instructors, we would have to charge students more to end up in the Black. Those who are now instructors for us have benefitted by the reduced cost as students.
We also maintain one student per instructor as a guideline; although an instructor may ask for more then one student. Generally we don't have instructors complaining about the cost to instruct. We are a social club and it is clear that people are not out for the finacial reward or cost avoidance. At our last VIR event, we had 10 instructors attend to instruct only. We also provide lunches and have drawings at instructor meetings for small prizes like driving gloves, pyrometers, tire gauges, etc., We then have year end awards to recognize those who have volunteered their time for the club. Some of us are comped for the events because we spend many hours during the season registering, planning, and responding to queries.
As an organizer, I have tracked registration for several seasons in a row... It also appears that the no show rate is highest when there is no fee. Also, if we did not charge instructors, we would have to charge students more to end up in the Black. Those who are now instructors for us have benefitted by the reduced cost as students.
We also maintain one student per instructor as a guideline; although an instructor may ask for more then one student. Generally we don't have instructors complaining about the cost to instruct. We are a social club and it is clear that people are not out for the finacial reward or cost avoidance. At our last VIR event, we had 10 instructors attend to instruct only. We also provide lunches and have drawings at instructor meetings for small prizes like driving gloves, pyrometers, tire gauges, etc., We then have year end awards to recognize those who have volunteered their time for the club. Some of us are comped for the events because we spend many hours during the season registering, planning, and responding to queries.
Last edited by Paul 996; 09-09-2009 at 07:21 PM. Reason: spellin currection
09-09-2009, 07:26 PM
#71
Drifting
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The only thing worse would be if you blow a tranny... 
Seriously though, speaking as a student, the amount I pay for a PCA DE is a bargain considering the quality instruction that it provides me, especially in the advanced run group. Compare it with what that same coaching in my right hand seat would cost me if I hired a private instructor and paid for a track day. I'm not going to say that money is no object and that I can afford to attend every single event (because I can't), but I've always felt that, relatively speaking, the PCA registration fees are a bargain for what I'm receiving as a student. And that's with me paying enough in registration fees for our region to be able to comp the instructors 100% for the track time.
And actually, I would be curious to know what other regions are charging their students for a DE weekend.
Seriously though, speaking as a student, the amount I pay for a PCA DE is a bargain considering the quality instruction that it provides me, especially in the advanced run group. Compare it with what that same coaching in my right hand seat would cost me if I hired a private instructor and paid for a track day. I'm not going to say that money is no object and that I can afford to attend every single event (because I can't), but I've always felt that, relatively speaking, the PCA registration fees are a bargain for what I'm receiving as a student. And that's with me paying enough in registration fees for our region to be able to comp the instructors 100% for the track time.
And actually, I would be curious to know what other regions are charging their students for a DE weekend.
09-09-2009, 07:27 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
09-09-2009, 07:31 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
09-09-2009, 07:36 PM
#74
With PCA groups I don't mind paying a reduced rate because as Christian said I believe I need to pay it forward.
As an example Potomac recently asked our club for help with their recent DE @ VIR, many members of our club, some for the first time, stepped up and helped out. To me that's what being a PCA member is all about. I have made some truly great friends through track events and it is a small price to pay as far as I'm concerned.
I also instruct for a couple of private, for profit, groups and in that situation it doesn't cost me anything.
VR- Don't mess with Texas! (Aggie '83)
As an example Potomac recently asked our club for help with their recent DE @ VIR, many members of our club, some for the first time, stepped up and helped out. To me that's what being a PCA member is all about. I have made some truly great friends through track events and it is a small price to pay as far as I'm concerned.
I also instruct for a couple of private, for profit, groups and in that situation it doesn't cost me anything.
VR- Don't mess with Texas! (Aggie '83)
09-09-2009, 07:38 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
With PCA groups I don't mind paying a reduced rate because as Christian said I believe I need to pay it forward.
As an example Potomac recently asked our club for help with their recent DE @ VIR, many members of our club, some for the first time, stepped up and helped out. To me that's what being a PCA member is all about. I have made some truly great friends through track events and it is a small price to pay as far as I'm concerned.
I also instruct for a couple of private, for profit, groups and in that situation it doesn't cost me anything.
VR- Don't mess with Texas! (Aggie '83)
As an example Potomac recently asked our club for help with their recent DE @ VIR, many members of our club, some for the first time, stepped up and helped out. To me that's what being a PCA member is all about. I have made some truly great friends through track events and it is a small price to pay as far as I'm concerned.
I also instruct for a couple of private, for profit, groups and in that situation it doesn't cost me anything.
VR- Don't mess with Texas! (Aggie '83)
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