Darren

With the economy doing as it has been, our local PCA region has been having trouble getting enough instructors to attend events.

I've instructed for several clubs including PCA, BMW, NASA, etc....PCA is the only club that I've run with that charges instructors. Are there PCA regions that don't charge instructors?

Our region charges half price for instructors and tries to keep the student/instructor ratio to 1:1. This year that has been impossible because we simply don't have enough instructors.

Would not charging instructors help? Should instructors have to pay?

I'm interested to hear any opinions/comments from instructors, students, or anyone else

jscott82

I really like the way our region does it.....
I can’t remember the exact percentages, but if you take one student you get a ~50% break, take 2 students and get ~75% break..... To me the option of taking only one student, leaving time to socialize, makes it a great deal.... Or if im feeling thrifty, I still have the option to take two..

Gary R.

I think this Poll needs a sub-poll of how many instructors are voting...

jrotsaert

I haven't instructed since 2003 because I did not like the idea of having to give my time, brakes and tyres... Just a student adds 150 to 200 lbs and the extra weight meant huge incremental expenses and for every time I had a nice person, I had at least 1 other that thought they knew it all and I just couldn't put up with that...

Had it been free, I might have taken a street car....

I stopped racing in 2007 after a podium at Donington and now I'm thinking of DEs again

Tom W

I'm an instructor for a few clubs. In northern CA, some PCA regions provide no significant cost reduction while some other PCA groups and most of the for profit groups allow instructors to drive for free. Reduced cost or free is certainly preferred, the extent of the reduction should be concomitant to the workload expected.

George3

Some of the reasons our club is doling out 2 students / per / instuctor is their attitude. Few instructors want to come back. I've heard it. I was actually assigned 3 students at the Watkins Glen event last month. Inexcuseable... I'm sorry. They (PCA) don't really offer the things that the other clubs do (NASA, BMW, etc), i.e., 1:1 student ratio, lunch, free admin, goodies and appreciative attitude.

Weston

There are two types of instructors... those who primarily want to help out, and those who are mostly in it for the silly little title and vanity nonsense. I'm sure we've all run into the pretentious blow-hard "instructor" who's in it for all the wrong reasons, and is pretty obnoxious to be around in general. There is also frequently some sort of little club or clique associated with these retards.

Instructors are volunteers, and they need to be respected and appreciated as such. They should have to jump through some reasonable hoops to become qualified to be an instructor, and then it's basically a volunteer relationship. It would be appropriate to somewhat reward them for their work. But it is absolutely unacceptable, and is quite pretentious, to expect them to have to pay to volunteer for you, and that kind of arrangement is going to attract the bad kind of instructor a lot more than the good kind.

I don't instruct for NASA anymore because they seemed to forget that we're volunteers, and it's quite a pain in the *** for those of us who also race at these events. It wasn't a good deal for racers before (although it was still a lot better than PCA), but I did it because I wanted to help out. This year, the deal got unsweetened a bit, and some hoops and expense got added too. I have no desire to help anymore, and am a bit irritated at the whole thing, because it reeks of pretentiousness. Not only did they lose me as a volunteer, but the attitude served to make me reevaluate my relationship with them as a customer as well. I can't see myself ever instructing for PCA for similar reasons, even though they get some slack on that issue because they're a club and not a for-profit business.

So, I suppose what it all comes down to is realizing what kind of relationship is at play, and what an appropriate range of "give and take" is for that kind of relationship... If you're a worker, then they pay or otherwise compensate you. If you're a volunteer, then maybe you get something back but it's not substantial. Under no circumstances would I ever pay to work for someone; that's absolutely ridiculous.

Bob Rouleau

My region gives Instructors a 50 percent discount and the rule is one student per event. It works and I like it. I did a BMW event recently, Instructors get in free but have 3 students each. Four run groups, three instructed. That's a workload!

DarkSideDE

The poll seems to be missing some choices.

1. Pay full price - receive 50% back Sunday late afternoon
2. Take on more responsibility (i.e. two students) receive discount back or full money back
3. Speak to the organizers about obligations and try to have fee waived
4. Become part of the DE team, do some of the work and have free "stress" DE plus hotel room (if available)

I'm sure there are others. The poll just seems biased toward the instructors and not the organizers. The thoughts behind why some regions charge and other's don't is not coming through. You might want to figure out the price of the DE. If the DE is reasonably priced for all participants, the instructors are most likely paying something towards it too. Someone has to pay for the bill at the track -- and it isn't fair to a region's membership if the club can't break even.

Just my thoughts early in the morning...

bobt993

^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't think this is a bias towards organizers. Looks more like a fact finding mission from Darren. If the formula is to charge the least amount for students which the region he is discussing does, then you can see why the workload is so high for instructors. I think where Darren is going is that if the fees were comparable to other regions, then the balance would shift towards the solo and instructors attendance based on reduced or free rates. I remember when there were only so many spots for student groups and if you did not attend the actual meeting, you would not get in "sold out".

NASA runs a for profit business and manages to provide incentive for instructors and a positive environment for the attendees/volunteers. I think NASA also gets alot more runs into the day by keeping the track active doing hot pulls and using a pace car to enter and clear the track for the DE participants.

DarkSideDE

Bob, the guys I know that do the HPDEs with NASA and they told me they realized they are paying more to be with NASA than the NASA racers are. Their time seems to taken away from them because of time off track incidents and given to the racers to finish up. So they are seeing less time on the track for more money. (Ask about Road Atlanta and NASA last year.)

As an organizer, I remember trying to gather as much info as I could about instructors - To Pay or Not to Pay. I was amazed by the stories I received. Organizers of two different BMW clubs told me that Saturday mornings were a nightmare. Their instructors are free, and therefore have not put in the investment to be there. Saturday rollcalls and missing instructors who just didn't feel like coming became normal. I don't know how they handle it today. Other clubs would tell me that if their instructors could last till Sunday afternoon, they would either give them back the check they wrote (they bring them to the track for this purpose) or return 50% if asked by the instructors who knew about it.

One thing, I have had instructors insist on some sort of charge. (We only charge $100.) When I asked why I was told we would see a better class of instructors. Perhaps they are right, we always have had wonderful instructors with us.

Or maybe we can thank Byron Von Dwyer here. From the beginning he always insisted the money the drivers spend be spent back on the DE. Which is why we enjoy giving a pizza, wine, beer party on the Friday night. Our instructors receive free lunch for Saturday and Sunday. The instructors are invited to our Saturday night dinner at the track. (Supplemented for all participants, free for instructors). And yes, we always make sure there is a nice gift. For our next DE, we are giving away black/gray jackets. We also aim for one student per instructor -- unless someone likes two to fill in their day.

As in real life...

Geoffrey

I am an instructor, and I feel that instructors should have to pay to be at a DE, although I also think that it should be at a reduced rate as many of the PCA clubs have it structured today. As a racer/instructor, I have been doing less and less PCA DEs and more and more open track events (Group52, Kojote, etc.) because the lap time and speed is so much greater than any of the PCA DE run groups and it really isn't fun, nor does it accomplish anything. This speed difference makes people uneasy, even in the instructor run groups, and then the organizers have to get involved. This leads to the perception that racers are problems at DEs when in reality, they are driving 6-7 10th of their capability.

Flying Finn

Reduced price works and it seems here, is necessary, since our region is having an instructor shortage which never is a good thing (you end up with less than good instructors).

I personally don't like having 2 (or more!) students. When I've done it, my experience is there is no time to talk with the students between sessions and also basically no time to sit down & relax a bit.

AlpharettaRK

I wouldn't instruct if I was going to get 2 students, even if it was free. I really only instruct for the PCA to help, because somebody was willing to strap in beside me once. I don't feel the same need to help out with any businesses that run DE's. I'm happy to pay full price, get my track time and relax or putz with the car between sessions. I'm also happy to take or ride with any former students or anybody else that asks just about any time, any place and with any group that allows it.
Cheers
Randy

Veloce Raptor

We don't pay down here in Texas, nor with other groups for whom I have instructed in Georgia and Alabama, unless there is an extra Friday open track day.

And that's the way it should be, yo!






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