ECR PCA CR/DE May 23-24 -- Roll Call
05-27-2009, 06:31 PM
#107
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Final diagnosis: spun the rod bearings. most likely due to oil starvation in high g turns.
Dropping a new engine into the cab begs the question on a plan B and a plan C.
In fact, if this had happened two weeks earlier, I'd be driving around today in that cobalt blue 997 RUF GT3 that got snapped up for a song.
05-27-2009, 07:01 PM
#108
The Penguin King
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05-27-2009, 07:30 PM
#109
Race Car
Wishful thinking, it seems.
Final diagnosis: spun the rod bearings. most likely due to oil starvation in high g turns.
That was plan A.
Dropping a new engine into the cab begs the question on a plan B and a plan C.
In fact, if this had happened two weeks earlier, I'd be driving around today in that cobalt blue 997 RUF GT3 that got snapped up for a song.
Final diagnosis: spun the rod bearings. most likely due to oil starvation in high g turns.
That was plan A.
Dropping a new engine into the cab begs the question on a plan B and a plan C.
In fact, if this had happened two weeks earlier, I'd be driving around today in that cobalt blue 997 RUF GT3 that got snapped up for a song.
T
05-27-2009, 08:40 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
Wishful thinking, it seems.
Final diagnosis: spun the rod bearings. most likely due to oil starvation in high g turns.
That was plan A.
Dropping a new engine into the cab begs the question on a plan B and a plan C.
In fact, if this had happened two weeks earlier, I'd be driving around today in that cobalt blue 997 RUF GT3 that got snapped up for a song.
Final diagnosis: spun the rod bearings. most likely due to oil starvation in high g turns.
That was plan A.
Dropping a new engine into the cab begs the question on a plan B and a plan C.
In fact, if this had happened two weeks earlier, I'd be driving around today in that cobalt blue 997 RUF GT3 that got snapped up for a song.
Oh, dang. THAT sucks. Yeah, ECR is a high G high RPM track. Ugh.
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05-27-2009, 08:59 PM
#111
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05-27-2009, 10:12 PM
#112
Burning Brakes
Wishful thinking, it seems.
Final diagnosis: spun the rod bearings. most likely due to oil starvation in high g turns.
That was plan A.
Dropping a new engine into the cab begs the question on a plan B and a plan C.
In fact, if this had happened two weeks earlier, I'd be driving around today in that cobalt blue 997 RUF GT3 that got snapped up for a song.
Final diagnosis: spun the rod bearings. most likely due to oil starvation in high g turns.
That was plan A.
Dropping a new engine into the cab begs the question on a plan B and a plan C.
In fact, if this had happened two weeks earlier, I'd be driving around today in that cobalt blue 997 RUF GT3 that got snapped up for a song.
sorry to hear, I saw your car blowing smoke earlier in the day. I went through a similar experience in my 2002 996. Big Bend at MSR-C, 1 &2 at TWS and turn 6 at ECR did mine in. The 2005 replacement motor is worth every $$$, get the X51 oil pan I spent a little time in the right seat of that blue gt3 last weekend, very impressive car.
05-28-2009, 10:01 AM
#114
Rennlist Member
We have seen this in SPBOX as well. I have gone through an engine after it starved for oil at NPR. The results were not pretty. The X51 oil pan helps but we are currently looking into installing an Accusump.
05-28-2009, 10:14 AM
#115
Race Car
Interesting.
What part of NPR do y'all figure caused enough sustained Gs to cause the oil starvation..., T14 or T8 & 9...?
Are those engines more prone to suffer starvation more in right or left hand corners like the 944 wedge shaped oil pan design or is it just a general problem not associated with direction...?
T
05-28-2009, 11:25 AM
#116
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Hey guys, I appreciate the condolences and advice, but I kind of have a different take on the whole thing.
First off, I did have the X51 oil pan. The baffle minimizes the sloshing around that leads to smoke on startup, but it's not enough to prevent oil starvation in high g turns. The reason my car smoked on startup this past weekend is because I had topped off the oil to within one bar of the maximum, and the x51 pan minimizes smoke at startup only if you run closer to the minimum.
What I really needed was the oil separator. The reason is that even with the x51 pan, my oil pressure drops quite a bit at certain turns at all three tracks that I frequent. At ECR, Turns 5, 9, and 10 are the worst. Everyone probably has issues with 9, but 5 and 10 is where my AWD lets me be as aggressive as the tires can stand. I lost the engine in 10, but that could be a coincidence. Still, I'm just saying....
Ahhh.... the tires. I've been running on a set of R6's that have seen time at TWS, MSR, and ECR. Now I'm not saying that I'm so great of a driver that I've surpassed the capability of this car, but for the past year, I've found that most new challenges for me have come from changing up the configuration a bit - adding the hard top, dealing with ABS failure, always turning off PSM, etc. The R6 experiment was no different, albeit providing a positive aid vs. a challenge to overcome. I knew it was risky, and I was warned that it was risky. I took that risk, and I think that more than anything, my engine failure was caused by the repeated lateral g loads over the course of the last few months on those R6's.
If I were still in the blue run group, running without the lightweight Volk wheels, without the GT3 control arms and negative camber in the front, with stock PS 2's, there is no doubt in my mind that this 996 would still be running like a top. I just progressed more quickly than my search for a track car did, did some things to the car to keep things interesting, and in the end, moved the most likely point of failure from the driver, to the electronics, to the tires, to the mechanical. And I did it knowing the risks.
I say all of that for the owners of other 996's, who shouldn't think for a moment that they face the same odds with their cars. Yes, there are other 911's that are less likely to have engine failure. But my odds were made less favorable than the norm by the things I mentioned above. I mean, think about it, I had gotten to the point where I was consistently 3-wheeling a 3400 lb, front-heavy, AWD cab around as though it were a go-cart. My fault. Time to move on...
As I've shared with some of you before, club racing could well be in my future some day, but I'm even more interested in the art of instructing and seeing others get the same ****-eating grin on their face that I do by putting my street car on the track. A dedicated track car was going to be a compromise, forced by the realization that the cab was no longer appropriate, and yet, not ready to be retired from the street. Now, it just makes sense to re-evaluate...
The cab is cosmetically in fantastic condition, and with a new engine/2-yr warranty, will be in even better mechanical condition than before. But I've owned it now for seven years. Paid cash for it, so that's seven years of truly wonderful and all-in ownership experience. I love that car. And it will continue to be a gorgeous, one-of-kind C4 Cab - to the next owner. Very capable on the track, and still able to draw stares on the street. Me? I'm ready for a new street Porsche. One that is up to my ability to throw it around at the track. One that puts ME back to being the most likely single point of failure.
Not a spec boxster. Not a 944. Not a miata. Not a 993, 964, or any other PCA class racer. Sorry guys. The answer has always been there in the back of my mind... a GT3. And I won't be one of those green drivers that show up in a GT3 as my first Porsche to scare the hell out of instructors. I plan to be one of those drivers that will enter into GT3 ownership with enough skill to truly enjoy the comparison to my 2 prior 911's on the track, occasionally drive it to work, and some day, get to flog it around with the guys in the red run group.
There's a lot of truth to the saying that every cloud has a silver lining. I guess it's because there's a friggin sun behind it waiting to shine a little light on things.
First off, I did have the X51 oil pan. The baffle minimizes the sloshing around that leads to smoke on startup, but it's not enough to prevent oil starvation in high g turns. The reason my car smoked on startup this past weekend is because I had topped off the oil to within one bar of the maximum, and the x51 pan minimizes smoke at startup only if you run closer to the minimum.
What I really needed was the oil separator. The reason is that even with the x51 pan, my oil pressure drops quite a bit at certain turns at all three tracks that I frequent. At ECR, Turns 5, 9, and 10 are the worst. Everyone probably has issues with 9, but 5 and 10 is where my AWD lets me be as aggressive as the tires can stand. I lost the engine in 10, but that could be a coincidence. Still, I'm just saying....
Ahhh.... the tires. I've been running on a set of R6's that have seen time at TWS, MSR, and ECR. Now I'm not saying that I'm so great of a driver that I've surpassed the capability of this car, but for the past year, I've found that most new challenges for me have come from changing up the configuration a bit - adding the hard top, dealing with ABS failure, always turning off PSM, etc. The R6 experiment was no different, albeit providing a positive aid vs. a challenge to overcome. I knew it was risky, and I was warned that it was risky. I took that risk, and I think that more than anything, my engine failure was caused by the repeated lateral g loads over the course of the last few months on those R6's.
If I were still in the blue run group, running without the lightweight Volk wheels, without the GT3 control arms and negative camber in the front, with stock PS 2's, there is no doubt in my mind that this 996 would still be running like a top. I just progressed more quickly than my search for a track car did, did some things to the car to keep things interesting, and in the end, moved the most likely point of failure from the driver, to the electronics, to the tires, to the mechanical. And I did it knowing the risks.
I say all of that for the owners of other 996's, who shouldn't think for a moment that they face the same odds with their cars. Yes, there are other 911's that are less likely to have engine failure. But my odds were made less favorable than the norm by the things I mentioned above. I mean, think about it, I had gotten to the point where I was consistently 3-wheeling a 3400 lb, front-heavy, AWD cab around as though it were a go-cart. My fault. Time to move on...
As I've shared with some of you before, club racing could well be in my future some day, but I'm even more interested in the art of instructing and seeing others get the same ****-eating grin on their face that I do by putting my street car on the track. A dedicated track car was going to be a compromise, forced by the realization that the cab was no longer appropriate, and yet, not ready to be retired from the street. Now, it just makes sense to re-evaluate...
The cab is cosmetically in fantastic condition, and with a new engine/2-yr warranty, will be in even better mechanical condition than before. But I've owned it now for seven years. Paid cash for it, so that's seven years of truly wonderful and all-in ownership experience. I love that car. And it will continue to be a gorgeous, one-of-kind C4 Cab - to the next owner. Very capable on the track, and still able to draw stares on the street. Me? I'm ready for a new street Porsche. One that is up to my ability to throw it around at the track. One that puts ME back to being the most likely single point of failure.
Not a spec boxster. Not a 944. Not a miata. Not a 993, 964, or any other PCA class racer. Sorry guys. The answer has always been there in the back of my mind... a GT3. And I won't be one of those green drivers that show up in a GT3 as my first Porsche to scare the hell out of instructors. I plan to be one of those drivers that will enter into GT3 ownership with enough skill to truly enjoy the comparison to my 2 prior 911's on the track, occasionally drive it to work, and some day, get to flog it around with the guys in the red run group.
There's a lot of truth to the saying that every cloud has a silver lining. I guess it's because there's a friggin sun behind it waiting to shine a little light on things.
05-28-2009, 11:45 AM
#117
Rennlist Member
Hmph....really....?
Interesting.
What part of NPR do y'all figure caused enough sustained Gs to cause the oil starvation..., T14 or T8 & 9...?
Are those engines more prone to suffer starvation more in right or left hand corners like the 944 wedge shaped oil pan design or is it just a general problem not associated with direction...?
T
Interesting.
What part of NPR do y'all figure caused enough sustained Gs to cause the oil starvation..., T14 or T8 & 9...?
Are those engines more prone to suffer starvation more in right or left hand corners like the 944 wedge shaped oil pan design or is it just a general problem not associated with direction...?
T
05-28-2009, 11:50 AM
#118
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Russ,
I am very sorry to hear about the diagnosis of your car. Wish you the best with whatever you decide. The ex-CJ Wilson car looked great out there. Barry was a student of mine at the March DE, he had a huge smile on his face.
05-28-2009, 01:14 PM
#119
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Russell, great email and a lot of stuff to think about in there. Including yours, I personally know of five 996's in Texas that have lost engines in the last two years due to track duty. I don't know any details beyond that in terms of whether it was specifically bearing failure, intermediate shaft, etc. But it's enough to make me think that if anyone is serious about pushing a 996 engine hard on the track on a regular basis, they need to invest in an accusump or the like to keep oil feeding the critical bits at all G loads. Or just start a savings fund for a new engine. I guess that is one thing the pre-996 aircooled 911's had over the 996's -- dry sump lubrication.
Good luck with the GT3. That'll be a fun car!
Good luck with the GT3. That'll be a fun car!
05-28-2009, 01:41 PM
#120
Burning Brakes