??Thunderhill....most important corner??
02-05-2009, 08:26 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
??Thunderhill....most important corner??
I've been reading a great book about race driving called "Speed Secrets" by Ross Bentley....great book.....has some very interesting points about how to rank a corners importance vs other corners on the same track....
So here is the ????? Which is the single most important corner on the track and why.....
According to the book its the corner before the longest straight...since a good line will allow for the maximum possible speed down the straight reducing your lap times.... So in this instance it would be turn 15 with 13 right behind it....
It breaks corners down into two sections...those before straights (more important) and those before other corners (less important)....the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.....
So here is the ????? Which is the single most important corner on the track and why.....
According to the book its the corner before the longest straight...since a good line will allow for the maximum possible speed down the straight reducing your lap times.... So in this instance it would be turn 15 with 13 right behind it....
It breaks corners down into two sections...those before straights (more important) and those before other corners (less important)....the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.....
02-05-2009, 08:30 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
If you go by that, it would be 14 since when you get on the gas there you're in it until you're (potentially) braking for 1.
Depending on the car, and where you are as a driver, 6 if you can do it flat lets you carry it all the way to 9.
How soon you can get on it in 11 determines how much speed you carry down to 14.
Lots of time to be had through 2, also!
Depending on the car, and where you are as a driver, 6 if you can do it flat lets you carry it all the way to 9.
How soon you can get on it in 11 determines how much speed you carry down to 14.
Lots of time to be had through 2, also!
02-05-2009, 08:48 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
If you go by that, it would be 14 since when you get on the gas there you're in it until you're (potentially) braking for 1.
Depending on the car, and where you are as a driver, 6 if you can do it flat lets you carry it all the way to 9.
How soon you can get on it in 11 determines how much speed you carry down to 14.
Lots of time to be had through 2, also!
Depending on the car, and where you are as a driver, 6 if you can do it flat lets you carry it all the way to 9.
How soon you can get on it in 11 determines how much speed you carry down to 14.
Lots of time to be had through 2, also!
T1 is important as well, many people (myself included) over-brake at T1 and lose time between 1 & 2.
02-05-2009, 08:56 PM
#4
Lifetime Rennlist Member
That is generally true but it also depends on the car. If there is a corner between two straights and you can set up the car to take it flat, then that corner usually becomes the most important. So for some higher downforce cars T1 that THill is the most important as you can compromise the setup to take it flat. Same is true for T1 at Mid Ohio - take it flat and the straight is twice as long.
02-05-2009, 09:04 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
There are a few places where you can loose a LOT of time at Thill. approach to turn 1. Also, through turn 8. most of the other turns, you can make up time if you make a mistake or it doesnt cost you much. However, I have to say, the longest turn of a road course can be the death of you . you can kill someone by 2 seconds a lap, but when you get to turn 2, and you cant handle against another car, you can probably lose the most amount of time there.
mk
mk
That is generally true but it also depends on the car. If there is a corner between two straights and you can set up the car to take it flat, then that corner usually becomes the most important. So for some higher downforce cars T1 that THill is the most important as you can compromise the setup to take it flat. Same is true for T1 at Mid Ohio - take it flat and the straight is twice as long.
02-05-2009, 09:09 PM
#6
Race Car
At Thunderhill, it might be more useful to ask what the least important corners are. 7? 5? 3?
Last edited by JackOlsen; 02-05-2009 at 09:30 PM.
02-05-2009, 09:14 PM
#7
Race Director
Thread Starter
I have no doubts that I am leaving lots of time on 11-12-13 since I spun there a couple sessions back..so now I take it far to timid..... The more I think about I'm leaving a bunch of time all over the place...but it will come with time and confidence
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02-05-2009, 09:17 PM
#8
Race Director
Thread Starter
I would say 3-4-5 are all pretty easy corners...since they are so close together... 6 should be flat after apex to track out, 7 flat for sure (I'm still working on that) and 8 should be a quick brake-turn in-then flat through apex to track out.... I'm loosing time on 9 for sure..but an earlier turn in should help
02-05-2009, 10:02 PM
#10
Race Director
Thread Starter
My current best is a 2:12 but the best I have on video is a 2:16.7 where i got stuck in some traffic over 11-12-13 heres a link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M03nTK-Qeas
I wouldn't say I've plateaued, since my times are getting better with each track day..... I would say the car in its current setup is a 2:02-3 car...I have no doubts that Kibort could pull a sub 2:05 with ease in it....
I'm just trying to find some easy seconds..... Here where I think I could improve in the video....
Turn 1 faster
Turn 2 a little faster
turn 6 flat by apex
Turn 7 flat (it was maybe 3/4ths)
Turn 8 is slow
Turn 9 is slow
11-12-13 are very slow from traffic (my guess is 3-4 seconds there alone)
14 -15 seem okay..maybe early full throttle on 15
02-05-2009, 11:29 PM
#11
Race Car
Two things moved me from 2:03s to 2:01's at Thunderhill, and one of them came from Kibort. But I'm going to go through the course sequentially, and tell you what I'd say if I was riding as your instructor.
Turn 1. You probably can carry more speed through this corner, but the way you're driving it you're never going to find out. You need to brake earlier, and possibly harder, so that you're flat on the gas through the corner. Right now, you're on and off, which just makes the car unstable and lowers your maximum speed. If the car is in a squat under full throttle, you'll get a better feel for what you can actually carry through there. Late braking is costing you, I think.
Turn 2. This is where Kibort changed my life. Check out the video in my signature (sorry about the lack of engine noise), or look at Mark's videos. He drives a defensive race line into that corner which is counter to the textbook and the cones, but makes him faster. Enter the corner from further left, and brake much later. It doesn't work for everybody; a friend of mine who's a very fast 911 driver can't keep his car under control when he does it. I think it helps if the car is set up to push just little, especially under braking. But you dive in early, and then scrub speed basically in a slide -- then get flat on the gas for the last big piece of the sweeper. You might miss the second apex, but so long as the car doesn't go off the right side of the track at exit, you're golden.
3-4-5. Whatever. I'm sure there are little fixes, but for now I think you're fine. Braking early enough on the uphill is the only important thing right now, because it'll get you on the gas earlier for the jump over the hump and you'll make some time before you brake for 6.
It looks like you're maybe trying to brake late for 6, which think this is a mistake. Maybe you're not. But judging by the audio, you're not full on the gas until after the apex, and that's costing you. You want to maximize your exit speed on this corner, since the whole back half of the track depends on it. Brake as early as you need to in order to be flat on the gas at or before the apex of 6 and then stay on it until the entry to 8.
7 8 and 9 are killing you. You've got to be flat through 7. You have all the room in the world on the right side of the exit right now. I'm not saying you have to do it the next time you're out, but slowly increase the speed you carry through 7 until you're flat on the gas from the exit of 6 until you're entering 8.
As you get comfortable with those quick doglegs, you're going to start to stop braking for 8 altogether. With a heavier, higher-hp car you'll probably need to breathe off the gas, but you can early apex 8 and carry a lot of speed through it. In my lower-hp car, it's flat. (That said, it's scary. You'll see that I'm not flat in the first lap in the link in my signature, but I am in the second, which was the following day.)
You're losing a LOT of speed in 9. It's a scary corner in a heavy car, but you need to brake a lot earlier (like at the 3 brake marker) and then be fully on the gas before you go up the hill -- flat on the gas at the 1 brake marker. It's not enough to be thrown to the right side of the track going through 9. You've got to be thrown to the right side of the track on the correct line through 9. It can be a very fast corner. (Look how I eat up the race-group Miata in the second lap because it -- of all cars -- slows down too much for 9.)
Turn 9 was the second 'lightbulb going off above my head' moment in the recent laptime jump, and it came after a student I was working with accidentally overcooked the corner in a huge way. Since we didn't shoot off the track, it got me to discover what some people call the Miata line over 9. It allows you to make a lot of passes before the entrance to 10.
10 is pretty textbook. You practice it until you get it.
You probably want to brake more and earlier for 11. It's hard to say, since you hit traffic there. But the key here again is the exit, so you can be flat on the gas from as early a point as possible all the way to the braking zone for 14.
You're doing a sustained-speed thing through 14 and 15, which I suspect is hurting you. I'd brake more (and maybe earlier) for 14, and then be on full throttle from the exit of 14 all the way to the braking zone for 1. I drop down to 2nd for 14 and grab 3rd between the two corners. You want to launch out of 15 more than you want to carry a smooth amount of speed through both of those corners. The sooner you're flat on the gas on the corner preceding the straight, the better.
Qualifier: I'm not really very experienced at Thunderhill, and I've never driven a 928 there. I zipped through your video and didn't really study it. But in my defense, I'm below 2:00 now with something like 100 fewer hp than your car (and granted, less weight). Further qualifier: Thunderhill takes a while to learn. You can't charge through corners you're not comfortable with. It might take you the next ten visits to get every corner right. But I think it will start with earlier and harder braking for some of those corners (1, 6, 9, 11, 14), so that you can get used to the corners under full throttle, which is going to be where your car handles best.
Turn 1. You probably can carry more speed through this corner, but the way you're driving it you're never going to find out. You need to brake earlier, and possibly harder, so that you're flat on the gas through the corner. Right now, you're on and off, which just makes the car unstable and lowers your maximum speed. If the car is in a squat under full throttle, you'll get a better feel for what you can actually carry through there. Late braking is costing you, I think.
Turn 2. This is where Kibort changed my life. Check out the video in my signature (sorry about the lack of engine noise), or look at Mark's videos. He drives a defensive race line into that corner which is counter to the textbook and the cones, but makes him faster. Enter the corner from further left, and brake much later. It doesn't work for everybody; a friend of mine who's a very fast 911 driver can't keep his car under control when he does it. I think it helps if the car is set up to push just little, especially under braking. But you dive in early, and then scrub speed basically in a slide -- then get flat on the gas for the last big piece of the sweeper. You might miss the second apex, but so long as the car doesn't go off the right side of the track at exit, you're golden.
3-4-5. Whatever. I'm sure there are little fixes, but for now I think you're fine. Braking early enough on the uphill is the only important thing right now, because it'll get you on the gas earlier for the jump over the hump and you'll make some time before you brake for 6.
It looks like you're maybe trying to brake late for 6, which think this is a mistake. Maybe you're not. But judging by the audio, you're not full on the gas until after the apex, and that's costing you. You want to maximize your exit speed on this corner, since the whole back half of the track depends on it. Brake as early as you need to in order to be flat on the gas at or before the apex of 6 and then stay on it until the entry to 8.
7 8 and 9 are killing you. You've got to be flat through 7. You have all the room in the world on the right side of the exit right now. I'm not saying you have to do it the next time you're out, but slowly increase the speed you carry through 7 until you're flat on the gas from the exit of 6 until you're entering 8.
As you get comfortable with those quick doglegs, you're going to start to stop braking for 8 altogether. With a heavier, higher-hp car you'll probably need to breathe off the gas, but you can early apex 8 and carry a lot of speed through it. In my lower-hp car, it's flat. (That said, it's scary. You'll see that I'm not flat in the first lap in the link in my signature, but I am in the second, which was the following day.)
You're losing a LOT of speed in 9. It's a scary corner in a heavy car, but you need to brake a lot earlier (like at the 3 brake marker) and then be fully on the gas before you go up the hill -- flat on the gas at the 1 brake marker. It's not enough to be thrown to the right side of the track going through 9. You've got to be thrown to the right side of the track on the correct line through 9. It can be a very fast corner. (Look how I eat up the race-group Miata in the second lap because it -- of all cars -- slows down too much for 9.)
Turn 9 was the second 'lightbulb going off above my head' moment in the recent laptime jump, and it came after a student I was working with accidentally overcooked the corner in a huge way. Since we didn't shoot off the track, it got me to discover what some people call the Miata line over 9. It allows you to make a lot of passes before the entrance to 10.
10 is pretty textbook. You practice it until you get it.
You probably want to brake more and earlier for 11. It's hard to say, since you hit traffic there. But the key here again is the exit, so you can be flat on the gas from as early a point as possible all the way to the braking zone for 14.
You're doing a sustained-speed thing through 14 and 15, which I suspect is hurting you. I'd brake more (and maybe earlier) for 14, and then be on full throttle from the exit of 14 all the way to the braking zone for 1. I drop down to 2nd for 14 and grab 3rd between the two corners. You want to launch out of 15 more than you want to carry a smooth amount of speed through both of those corners. The sooner you're flat on the gas on the corner preceding the straight, the better.
Qualifier: I'm not really very experienced at Thunderhill, and I've never driven a 928 there. I zipped through your video and didn't really study it. But in my defense, I'm below 2:00 now with something like 100 fewer hp than your car (and granted, less weight). Further qualifier: Thunderhill takes a while to learn. You can't charge through corners you're not comfortable with. It might take you the next ten visits to get every corner right. But I think it will start with earlier and harder braking for some of those corners (1, 6, 9, 11, 14), so that you can get used to the corners under full throttle, which is going to be where your car handles best.
02-05-2009, 11:38 PM
#12
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I'm with Mark on this one. Even for a low down-force 911, I think 8 and 1 are critical corners and slowing too much for them is worse than slowing too much for 14/15 or getting onto the gas a tad late when exiting 14/15 or 9. I think 5 and 11 are the least important corners on the track as slowing a bit too much there is easily and quickly overcome.
I've spent a couple years looking at the data from a Traqmate and now my MoTeC data systems to analyze where I was slowest and what made the biggest differences in my lap times. For me, going from a 2:04 to a 1:57 was all about keeping the speed in 8 and 1. Now if I could just be consistent in 9, I should be able to break 1:56...
I've spent a couple years looking at the data from a Traqmate and now my MoTeC data systems to analyze where I was slowest and what made the biggest differences in my lap times. For me, going from a 2:04 to a 1:57 was all about keeping the speed in 8 and 1. Now if I could just be consistent in 9, I should be able to break 1:56...
02-06-2009, 12:17 AM
#13
Race Director
Thread Starter
Jack
I've seen your video SO many times.....its great!! I took one of Kiborts old videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj2wN2BrFjs
& play it side by side with your over the top video.....pretty neat...
Tom
7 seconds saved in just two corners!!! WOW thats a ton of time!!
I'm going to work on a corner or two per session.... set goals that I should be able to reach, like take 7 flat everytime...take 8 slighty faster, same for 1...9 a bunch faster since it does seem like the car isn't trying very hard there...but it does get a bit light going down the hill which is a little scary..
I also need to work on threshold braking...& just braking harder in general..I have massive tires and brakes, might as well use them!!
Hopefully I see a few of you guys at the next NCRC day!!
I've seen your video SO many times.....its great!! I took one of Kiborts old videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj2wN2BrFjs
& play it side by side with your over the top video.....pretty neat...
Tom
7 seconds saved in just two corners!!! WOW thats a ton of time!!
I'm going to work on a corner or two per session.... set goals that I should be able to reach, like take 7 flat everytime...take 8 slighty faster, same for 1...9 a bunch faster since it does seem like the car isn't trying very hard there...but it does get a bit light going down the hill which is a little scary..
I also need to work on threshold braking...& just braking harder in general..I have massive tires and brakes, might as well use them!!
Hopefully I see a few of you guys at the next NCRC day!!
02-06-2009, 12:35 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Jacks got some great comments (thanks for the complement about turn 2 
) Actualy regarding turn 2, i also found that line by accident. when i read that article about hugging the apex around long high speed hair pins, it validated that i was ok in that menthod, that was derived in that I couldnt slow my car down, so i trail braked and turned in and suddenly, i was running up on most people there, but loosing the battle around the turn with the lighter cars like the S2000Sc due to just too much weight or my old stinky Toyos. 
.
Anyway, you will knock of a ton of time . when you hit the 206s you have arrived in a car like ours. then, its just a second here and there to knock it down to how fast Jack is in that little ripper! I got the new power now and should be in the 1:57s if I can get the courage to drive faster through 1. (im getting worse now that my approach speeds are faster) and I have to find a way to run around turn 2 faster . (maybe more rear wing if i fix the push with the bigger front tires )
You will be fine. Plus, you have a great attitude. all this video and help on the web, I never had any of this for years and years. Now, everyone is posting their videos. you can study what works and what might work and try it yourself.
cant wait to see you out with us. It will be a blast.
Too bad Jack's car is so pretty, or he might come out and race with us too!
I dont think he would get hit by anyone, but you never know. that first turn is always risky ,but our group is very very good. I cant remember when anyone even got a scratch on opening lap. bobcat and i trade paint, but he knows its ok to bump my ugly rear bumper thats all scratched up. (i hold him up 'til turn6 at both t-hill and laguna ! )
Have fun
Mark
) Actualy regarding turn 2, i also found that line by accident. when i read that article about hugging the apex around long high speed hair pins, it validated that i was ok in that menthod, that was derived in that I couldnt slow my car down, so i trail braked and turned in and suddenly, i was running up on most people there, but loosing the battle around the turn with the lighter cars like the S2000Sc due to just too much weight or my old stinky Toyos. .Anyway, you will knock of a ton of time . when you hit the 206s you have arrived in a car like ours. then, its just a second here and there to knock it down to how fast Jack is in that little ripper! I got the new power now and should be in the 1:57s if I can get the courage to drive faster through 1. (im getting worse now that my approach speeds are faster) and I have to find a way to run around turn 2 faster . (maybe more rear wing if i fix the push with the bigger front tires
)You will be fine. Plus, you have a great attitude. all this video and help on the web, I never had any of this for years and years. Now, everyone is posting their videos. you can study what works and what might work and try it yourself.
cant wait to see you out with us. It will be a blast.
Too bad Jack's car is so pretty, or he might come out and race with us too!
I dont think he would get hit by anyone, but you never know. that first turn is always risky ,but our group is very very good. I cant remember when anyone even got a scratch on opening lap. bobcat and i trade paint, but he knows its ok to bump my ugly rear bumper thats all scratched up. (i hold him up 'til turn6 at both t-hill and laguna ! )
Have fun
Mark