Bryan Watts

I don't mind a "big" downshift if I'm not trying to balance the brakes at the same time with heel-toe. I did occasionally try skipping gears in my old Formula MAzda where I could left foot brake and the braking zones were VERY VERY short compared to production cars (maxxed out at 135, plenty of aero downforce, and only 1350 pounds = small braking zone). I'm guessing the F1 cars of that era didn't require the use of the clutch pedal to downshift, so his right foot is totally free to make a huge blip.

As you say, there are no (at least not many) absolutes to driving technique. Driving a 250 hp, 3000 pound production car requires different skills and techniques than a 800 hp, 1200 pound open wheel car with big wings. As long as someone can still skip gears while balancing their heel-toe with a huge blip of the throttle on the ragged edge at corner entry, they are good to go. The problem is that if you can't, getting into a habit of skipping gears may stunt your ability to progress with your trail braking later. I probably wouldn't teach someone to steer the way that I do (watch my dad's hands, we pretty much drive exactly the same way despite having never been on track in the same car with each either), but if they are somewhat advanced and it's working for them and not holding them back, I'm certainly not going to try to force them into steering a different way.

MTosi

To be quite honest until I started reading stuff here I never realized there was a debate about going through the gears. I thought everyone did, EXCEPT in F1 (and other series with super fast cars) where they had huge brakes and ground effects, which made it nearly impossible to row through all the gears in the time alloted.

Larry Herman

It's one of those things where each side thinks that they are right because they each have their good points. I usually just go to the gear that I want, but at Daytona's turn 1 I was going from 5th to 3rd, and then to 2nd because of such a long braking area and the fact that the car was bending and braking at the same time at quite high speeds. I personally think that if you do it well, either way will work fine.

Bryan Watts

That's probably because you rarely downshift in auto-x, and when you do, it's only one gear.

Larry Herman

Oh snap!

DJF1

for sure, but keep in mind that club racers will never be able to test and tune their suspension to the degree of a pro team. Furthermore I would venture to say that F1 technology of the 80's when it comes to the majority of the club racing cars out there in terms of dampers is not that different. In the early 90's the active dampers used are probably still ahead of what we are currently driving now. I think there are a lot of lessons to be learned that are current for some of us who drive older cars by watching the old masters. When you watch Alain's video's its evident that he is ultra smooth keeping always 100% the absolute balance on the chassis, even on his long drawn downshifts from 5 or 6th straight down to 3rd at the end of the straights. He brakes hard, consistently and then by mid corner he always balance the car on throttle. Ross Bentley in his books and teachings he always points out the benefits of the ultimate balance on the chassis and tires. Maximizing the contact patch on all four corners only comes from managing effectively the weight transfer. You are constantly looking to draw the maximum adhesion from all 4 tires at the same time in any point through the corner. To me it makes absolute sense. While I will not claim that I'm the fastest out there, my natural tendency is to be very smooth and I have fully experienced some times when I get it right that great feeling of that perfect rotation and balance, that lightness on the chassis that tells you, you are there and its very rewarding. Great drivers like Alain do that all the time, mere mortals like me get this joy on occasion...
I personally think that many amateur drivers like me have a tendency to actually overdrive their car on most occasions and I have witnessed as a by product the lack of smoothness etc. While they think they drive the doors off the car I would venture to say that they are going slower than what the car is capable off. Just my 02.

Bryan Watts

Occasionally, it takes a lot of work on the steering wheel to maximize your traction at all 4 corners which is why I don't think you can define driving "smoothly" solely by the driver inputs.

The tracks we drive on aren't F1 smooth in most cases. They have patches of various kinds of pavement and concrete and seam sealer at different levels of wear. The grip available for a given tire may change every 2 feet as you go through a turn, requiring constant updates to your inputs to keep up with those changes. Our suspensions are also not nearly as optimized as the suspension on a F1 or Prototype car. As we turn the wheel, our alignment changes, as we hit bumps in the road, our steering changes...usually NOT in an optimal way. Some of our cars experience fairly large changes in roll resistance depending on where in the range of travel the suspension is...our front strut suspensions don't make enough camber from suspension compression to keep up with the amount of roll. We drive fairly "flexible" cars compared to purpose build race cars, so at the limit, you may even be dealing with chassis or suspension component flex that changes the alignment and suspension geometry in undesirable or unexpected ways.

The smoother (or more consistent) the track and the better the suspension design (i.e. purpose built race cars vs. production based), the less you'll see drivers needing to make small corrections to maximize those contact patches.

Essentially, the answer is always that there are no absolutes.

You can no more show a video of someone in a F1 car and say "this is how you should do it in a Spec Miata" than you can show a picture of a World Challenge driver and say "this is how you should do it in a Formula Mazda". Every car, driver, and track requires varying amounts of "input" to maximize those contact patches.

DJF1

I think we are essentially are saying the same thing Bryan. Corrections are necessary just driving Sebring alone is an example of a track that you get used and abused. However smoothness on the inputs, corrections etc is what I'm referring to, which is a far cry from someone who thinks that seesawing the wheel at every corner is the fastest way around it...

Bryan Watts

I agree to agree.

This is a hard thing to teach...the difference between slamming on the brake pedal and smoothly slamming on the brake pedal to give the tires a chance to catch up to your input and build grip can't be seen anywhere but on data. The difference happens in portions of a second. It's not something you can teach from the right seat...you can explain it, and some people will "get" it, but for most, the visual differences between someone hacking at the wheel and someone smoothly making very quick adjustments is nil.

TraqGear

Correct me if I'm wrong guys, I'm still a rookie (be gentle). But, as I understand it, "sawing" through corners opens up the slip angle, which in turn gives some feedback to the driver as to where and when you are approaching adhesion points. That's why you'll see people like me and others do more steering corrections than seasoned guys that have driven enough to "feel" there way through a turn with minimal corrections.

Larry Herman

Adhesion points of what? If you are talking about the grip of the front tires, then that would only apply up to the transition point in most turns. From that point out, your car should be rotating and the "grip" that you should be concerned about is your rear tires. The only corrections that you sould be doing then is to keep the front of the car "in front" of the back of the car.

IMHO driving a 911, if you are concerned about the grip of your front tires all the way through the turn, then you are either driving wrong, or your car is an understeering pig.

TraqGear

Well, adhesion points of all the tires. I mean, there is a slip angle of the car and a slip angle of the tires, both which are affected by your steering in a turn, as well as other factors like weight transfer, etc.

But, I'm not talking about sawing the wheel through the entire turn. However, I do think you'll see people with less experience use more corrections and wheel movements than seasoned guys, especially in conditions where you aren't getting much feedback from the car. Lastly, I've yet to drive a 911 that won't push to some degree through a long, sweeping turn.

Larry Herman

Ok. You are correct in your statement, but if you are testing the slip angles of your rear tires by sawing at the wheel, you will have plenty of time to think about that technique as they pull your car from the tire wall. You need to feel the back of the car with your butt, and the smoother that you are on the wheel, the better you will feel this.

I'm not certain what you mean by that. There is never any condition where I am not getting feedback from the car. Sometimes it shouts, and sometimes it's just a whisper, but it is always there.

I hope that you don't feel like I am picking on you, but I am not sure how well those 911s were setup. If there is any more than just a hint of push in a turn such as you describe, then the car has too much understeer. I found that when I had my cars dialed in, they would gently drift throught all but the longest sweepers, requiring me to dial out steering from the apex on.

I thought that my 996 GT3 had awesome balance once I put a proper alignment on it. It would easily turn-in under braking and would be very stable, but once it started to rotate and I applied power, it would rocket through the corner with the back end drifting and very much in charge.

TraqGear

No not at all Larry. That's why I posted...to get a little education from you guys. It's just what I concluded from my observations of driving techniques and what I've read about slip angles. I'm trying to get better and figure out WHY I do what I do and how to combine the best techniques. I watched some guys like Andy "smooth" through the turns with very little corrections and other pros with almost exact times go through with steering corrections. I figure since steering corrections open the slip angles on the car and tires, which in turn slows the car somewhat, the pros that do a lot of correcting may be approaching and staying close to the adhesion points. While guys that are smooth with few corrections, may not be getting quite that close to the adhesion points, but still turning great times because they aren't slowing the car any by openig the slip angles.

Sometimes I'll catch myself do a little "correcting" when it really wasn't needed much. I thought I may be subconsciously "feeling" for car's adhesion points, since I'm not experienced enough to really feel what is going on...in other words, not experienced enough to feel the really, really minute changes in the car prior to it's maximum speed in the turns.

I figure in the early stages of me fine tuning my skills, it is easier to put myself on the track of good habits. Once you guys get years of experience under your belt, it is much more second nature and maybe harder to identify the mechanics of what you did to get your best times. Heck, maybe I'm over-analyzing...I just wanna go faster!

Veloce Raptor

+1