Anyone want to see how a GT3 Cup is REALLY meant to be driven?
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As you say, there are no (at least not many) absolutes to driving technique. Driving a 250 hp, 3000 pound production car requires different skills and techniques than a 800 hp, 1200 pound open wheel car with big wings. As long as someone can still skip gears while balancing their heel-toe with a huge blip of the throttle on the ragged edge at corner entry, they are good to go. The problem is that if you can't, getting into a habit of skipping gears may stunt your ability to progress with your trail braking later. I probably wouldn't teach someone to steer the way that I do (watch my dad's hands, we pretty much drive exactly the same way despite having never been on track in the same car with each either), but if they are somewhat advanced and it's working for them and not holding them back, I'm certainly not going to try to force them into steering a different way.
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To be quite honest until I started reading stuff here I never realized there was a debate about going through the gears. I thought everyone did, EXCEPT in F1 (and other series with super fast cars) where they had huge brakes and ground effects, which made it nearly impossible to row through all the gears in the time alloted.
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To be quite honest until I started reading stuff here I never realized there was a debate about going through the gears. I thought everyone did, EXCEPT in F1 (and other series with super fast cars) where they had huge brakes and ground effects, which made it nearly impossible to row through all the gears in the time alloted.
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I personally think that many amateur drivers like me have a tendency to actually overdrive their car on most occasions and I have witnessed as a by product the lack of smoothness etc. While they think they drive the doors off the car I would venture to say that they are going slower than what the car is capable off. Just my 02.
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I personally think that many amateur drivers like me have a tendency to actually overdrive their car on most occasions and I have witnessed as a by product the lack of smoothness etc. While they think they drive the doors off the car I would venture to say that they are going slower than what the car is capable off. Just my 02.
The tracks we drive on aren't F1 smooth in most cases. They have patches of various kinds of pavement and concrete and seam sealer at different levels of wear. The grip available for a given tire may change every 2 feet as you go through a turn, requiring constant updates to your inputs to keep up with those changes. Our suspensions are also not nearly as optimized as the suspension on a F1 or Prototype car. As we turn the wheel, our alignment changes, as we hit bumps in the road, our steering changes...usually NOT in an optimal way. Some of our cars experience fairly large changes in roll resistance depending on where in the range of travel the suspension is...our front strut suspensions don't make enough camber from suspension compression to keep up with the amount of roll. We drive fairly "flexible" cars compared to purpose build race cars, so at the limit, you may even be dealing with chassis or suspension component flex that changes the alignment and suspension geometry in undesirable or unexpected ways.
The smoother (or more consistent) the track and the better the suspension design (i.e. purpose built race cars vs. production based), the less you'll see drivers needing to make small corrections to maximize those contact patches.
Essentially, the answer is always that there are no absolutes.
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You can no more show a video of someone in a F1 car and say "this is how you should do it in a Spec Miata" than you can show a picture of a World Challenge driver and say "this is how you should do it in a Formula Mazda". Every car, driver, and track requires varying amounts of "input" to maximize those contact patches.
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I think we are essentially are saying the same thing Bryan. Corrections are necessary just driving Sebring alone is an example of a track that you get used and abused. However smoothness on the inputs, corrections etc is what I'm referring to, which is a far cry from someone who thinks that seesawing the wheel at every corner is the fastest way around it...
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I agree to agree. ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
This is a hard thing to teach...the difference between slamming on the brake pedal and smoothly slamming on the brake pedal to give the tires a chance to catch up to your input and build grip can't be seen anywhere but on data. The difference happens in portions of a second. It's not something you can teach from the right seat...you can explain it, and some people will "get" it, but for most, the visual differences between someone hacking at the wheel and someone smoothly making very quick adjustments is nil.
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This is a hard thing to teach...the difference between slamming on the brake pedal and smoothly slamming on the brake pedal to give the tires a chance to catch up to your input and build grip can't be seen anywhere but on data. The difference happens in portions of a second. It's not something you can teach from the right seat...you can explain it, and some people will "get" it, but for most, the visual differences between someone hacking at the wheel and someone smoothly making very quick adjustments is nil.
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Correct me if I'm wrong guys, I'm still a rookie (be gentle). But, as I understand it, "sawing" through corners opens up the slip angle, which in turn gives some feedback to the driver as to where and when you are approaching adhesion points. That's why you'll see people like me and others do more steering corrections than seasoned guys that have driven enough to "feel" there way through a turn with minimal corrections.
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IMHO driving a 911, if you are concerned about the grip of your front tires all the way through the turn, then you are either driving wrong, or your car is an understeering pig.
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Adhesion points of what? If you are talking about the grip of the front tires, then that would only apply up to the transition point in most turns. From that point out, your car should be rotating and the "grip" that you should be concerned about is your rear tires. The only corrections that you sould be doing then is to keep the front of the car "in front" of the back of the car.
IMHO driving a 911, if you are concerned about the grip of your front tires all the way through the turn, then you are either driving wrong, or your car is an understeering pig.
IMHO driving a 911, if you are concerned about the grip of your front tires all the way through the turn, then you are either driving wrong, or your car is an understeering pig.
But, I'm not talking about sawing the wheel through the entire turn. However, I do think you'll see people with less experience use more corrections and wheel movements than seasoned guys, especially in conditions where you aren't getting much feedback from the car. Lastly, I've yet to drive a 911 that won't push to some degree through a long, sweeping turn.
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But, I'm not talking about sawing the wheel through the entire turn. However, I do think you'll see people with less experience use more corrections and wheel movements than seasoned guys, especially in conditions where you aren't getting much feedback from the car.
Lastly, I've yet to drive a 911 that won't push to some degree through a long, sweeping turn.
I thought that my 996 GT3 had awesome balance once I put a proper alignment on it. It would easily turn-in under braking and would be very stable, but once it started to rotate and I applied power, it would rocket through the corner with the back end drifting and very much in charge.
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Sometimes I'll catch myself do a little "correcting" when it really wasn't needed much. I thought I may be subconsciously "feeling" for car's adhesion points, since I'm not experienced enough to really feel what is going on...in other words, not experienced enough to feel the really, really minute changes in the car prior to it's maximum speed in the turns.
I figure in the early stages of me fine tuning my skills, it is easier to put myself on the track of good habits. Once you guys get years of experience under your belt, it is much more second nature and maybe harder to identify the mechanics of what you did to get your best times. Heck, maybe I'm over-analyzing...I just wanna go faster!
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Nice video of your dad at VIR, Bryan. I see why so many of you Bimmer drivers want to carry your braking all the way to the apex. In many corners, he turns in fast and early and balances the car all the way into the apex. It looks pretty fast in a front engined car. Don't try that in an air-cooled 911! ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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