Italian Grand Prix at Monza
09-16-2008, 01:37 PM
#121
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With all due respect to A.W, whom I find is right more often then not, I'm not so sure that FA did "turn down" Ferrari...
However, I do agree that Ferrari, although still near the top (or at the top) is looking like a less certain prospect than just a couple of years ago. The absence of Ross Brawn, Jean Todt etc. does seem to be having an impact. The team just seems a little more ragged and mistake-prone than we've become accustomed to. Plus, the re-signing of KR is curious (and in spite of my doubts, this one fact does support AW's theory). I really like Kimi, but I think this year he has underperformed on balance. There is validity to the argument that the car may not be at all suited to him, but this should only be an incremental impact for a driver of that caliber. I think the FA, MS etc brand of driver was better able to adapt to different cars and this may be Kimi's issue. Is it a question of talent, technical understanding or focus? I don't know, but there is something there.
The reason why the Kimi re-signing suprises me, is that it is for a contract extension BEYOND the next year, as he was already contracted for next year. As was said earlier in this thread, Ferrari seem to be going after two very, very good, but not great drivers. Feels a lot like when they had Alesi and Berger. Two top men, but not the very best.
FA annoyed the heck out of me last year with some of the antics, but I have tried to look at it more impartially and annoying or not, I think what it comes down to is he REALLY hates to lose. I am in the camp that feels his talent is perhaps the best right now and I think a team that really wants to be successful (Honda?) would do well to sign him and then a dependable number 2. I feel things work better when there is an implicit number 1.
Tricky times for FA though, Formula 1 memories can be short and he does not want to spend too much time in the wilderness. Adding to that complication is trying to predict which teams will thrive under the extensive rule changes that are coming. It may not be Ferrari.
However, I do agree that Ferrari, although still near the top (or at the top) is looking like a less certain prospect than just a couple of years ago. The absence of Ross Brawn, Jean Todt etc. does seem to be having an impact. The team just seems a little more ragged and mistake-prone than we've become accustomed to. Plus, the re-signing of KR is curious (and in spite of my doubts, this one fact does support AW's theory). I really like Kimi, but I think this year he has underperformed on balance. There is validity to the argument that the car may not be at all suited to him, but this should only be an incremental impact for a driver of that caliber. I think the FA, MS etc brand of driver was better able to adapt to different cars and this may be Kimi's issue. Is it a question of talent, technical understanding or focus? I don't know, but there is something there.
The reason why the Kimi re-signing suprises me, is that it is for a contract extension BEYOND the next year, as he was already contracted for next year. As was said earlier in this thread, Ferrari seem to be going after two very, very good, but not great drivers. Feels a lot like when they had Alesi and Berger. Two top men, but not the very best.
FA annoyed the heck out of me last year with some of the antics, but I have tried to look at it more impartially and annoying or not, I think what it comes down to is he REALLY hates to lose. I am in the camp that feels his talent is perhaps the best right now and I think a team that really wants to be successful (Honda?) would do well to sign him and then a dependable number 2. I feel things work better when there is an implicit number 1.
Tricky times for FA though, Formula 1 memories can be short and he does not want to spend too much time in the wilderness. Adding to that complication is trying to predict which teams will thrive under the extensive rule changes that are coming. It may not be Ferrari.
09-16-2008, 02:14 PM
#122
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You must take everything Wayne says with a bag of salt. Make no mistake about it, Alonso would sell his soul to the devil to be in a Ferrari. The remarks that Fernando turned down Ferrari are tongue in cheek from Mr. Wayne.
09-16-2008, 02:23 PM
#123
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Agree FA will have a difficult decision to make over the next few weeks ..... RB and others have made it clear what and who they want.....FA might stay with the Regie instead of going to BMW. I'm sure he knows a lot about the personnel @ BMW F1 thru Kubicka . If nothing we have learn' t that it is very important to FA how he feels about team personnel , very much like mansell, Where others like Prost and Senna didn't care as long as the car was good ......
As bad as the Renault is, FA is very comfortable with Team personnel , he will not jump ship unless he is absolutely sure he can win races . In this i will put my **** on the line and say while BMW is a possibility, they are not there yet themselves, Honda and RB does not look like a possibility , now if the ruling on Kers change's , the picture get's even more complicated , as it is Ferrari is far behind BMW , honda and others at the moment .. .
Last edited by A.Wayne; 09-16-2008 at 02:52 PM.
09-16-2008, 02:58 PM
#124
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Sssshhhhhhh
Agree FA will have a difficult decision to make over the next few weeks ..... RB and others have made it clear what and who they want.....FA might stay with the Regie instead of going to BMW. I'm sure he knows a lot about the personnel @ BMW F1 thru Kubicka . If nothing we have learn' t that it is very important to FA how he feels about team personnel , very much like mansell, Where others like Prost and Senna didn't care as long as the car was good ......
As bad as the Renault is, FA is very comfortable with Team personnel , he will not jump ship unless he is absolutely sure he can win races . In this i will put my **** on the line and say while BMW is a possibility, they are not there yet themselves, Honda and RB does not look like a possibility , now if the ruling on Kers change's , the picture get's even more complicated , as it is Ferrari is far behind BMW , honda and others at the moment .. .
Agree FA will have a difficult decision to make over the next few weeks ..... RB and others have made it clear what and who they want.....FA might stay with the Regie instead of going to BMW. I'm sure he knows a lot about the personnel @ BMW F1 thru Kubicka . If nothing we have learn' t that it is very important to FA how he feels about team personnel , very much like mansell, Where others like Prost and Senna didn't care as long as the car was good ......
As bad as the Renault is, FA is very comfortable with Team personnel , he will not jump ship unless he is absolutely sure he can win races . In this i will put my **** on the line and say while BMW is a possibility, they are not there yet themselves, Honda and RB does not look like a possibility , now if the ruling on Kers change's , the picture get's even more complicated , as it is Ferrari is far behind BMW , honda and others at the moment .. .
Honda definitely is out from FA's perpective. They want him and would pay him a lot (good for marketing, big company etc.), FA isn't a "team builder", he needs a team that can win, that's why when McLaren let him go, he has wanted to go to Ferrari.
BMW is a possibility, they probably wouldn't pay him as much as Honda but are better team (obviously than Honda), however they're not much better than Renault and can't guarantee wins for FA, with Kubica they might win one or two but with FA, no chance as he's not as good (have to tease W. at least a little) so most likely he'll remain at Renault.
09-16-2008, 03:01 PM
#125
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With all the new regulations coming next year (Even with or without Kers), it's hard to say which team will have the upper hand aside from McLaren who had an inherit advantage with their homemade ECU for the entire grid.
09-16-2008, 03:12 PM
#126
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Not that anyone cares what I think but what the hell. Here's my view of who might someday be considered one of the great ones.
Kimi - Not a chance. Sorry FF but your boy has been in a top car for the last seven years and has one WDC. And that one was a gift. He's obviously a very good driver but not great.
Massa - I'd like to say yes but he's been on a great team long enough that he'd shine by now if he was going to.
Obviously Ferarri thinks they can win with good but not great drivers. They might be right.
Alonso - Obviously Ferrari doesn't think so. I still think he's the best driver in F1 right now but I'm not sure he'll ever be back in a top ride. In a sport filled with idiots he seems to stand out. For some reason he's still my favorite driver but I don't think he'll ever be named in the same sentence as Senna or Shumi. Unlike Kimi, he still has a chance at greatness but it's fading fast. I could be wrong.
Vettel - Great drive which may translate into a great ride for next year but he's got a ways to go before anyone can get too excited.
Kubica and all the other young guns - Maybe there is one in there somewhere but no one is really setting the world on fire. Heikki looks bad next to Hammy. Kubica looks steady but not great.
Hammy - He's made some bonehead moves but it's not like Shumi did everything right all the time. He's one of my least favorite drivers but right now he seems to me like the guy most likely to join the greats of F1.
Just my 2 cents.
Jim
Kimi - Not a chance. Sorry FF but your boy has been in a top car for the last seven years and has one WDC. And that one was a gift. He's obviously a very good driver but not great.
Massa - I'd like to say yes but he's been on a great team long enough that he'd shine by now if he was going to.
Obviously Ferarri thinks they can win with good but not great drivers. They might be right.
Alonso - Obviously Ferrari doesn't think so. I still think he's the best driver in F1 right now but I'm not sure he'll ever be back in a top ride. In a sport filled with idiots he seems to stand out. For some reason he's still my favorite driver but I don't think he'll ever be named in the same sentence as Senna or Shumi. Unlike Kimi, he still has a chance at greatness but it's fading fast. I could be wrong.
Vettel - Great drive which may translate into a great ride for next year but he's got a ways to go before anyone can get too excited.
Kubica and all the other young guns - Maybe there is one in there somewhere but no one is really setting the world on fire. Heikki looks bad next to Hammy. Kubica looks steady but not great.
Hammy - He's made some bonehead moves but it's not like Shumi did everything right all the time. He's one of my least favorite drivers but right now he seems to me like the guy most likely to join the greats of F1.
Just my 2 cents.
Jim
I mostly agree with your opinions. While I agree Kimi is not the next G.V. or Senna, I give him more credit you do.
You take couple of wing failures and he's at least 2 times WDC and Alonso is only 1.
It is disappointing and somewhat "mysterious" to me why he struggles so much with the current Bridgestones (that's the main reason he can't put enough heat in to tyres & brakes). He never was a big car developer but isn't "nobody" in that aspect and certainly can drive fast.
One thing I know for sure though, while everyone is asking has he lost his motivation, interest etc. it couldn't be far from the truth. He loves F1 and is comlpetely motivated & committed (that's why it's so "mysterious" why he can't get those tyres working in short runs).
Same way I don't think Alonso is any better driver than what Kimi is. After couple of DNF's in his WDC year, he just "cruised" behind Kimi and then when Kimi's wing flew off or suspension broke, he collected the 10 points while Kimi got nothing. Had that not happened, very smart driving (and luck) but not greatness.
I agree with the "new crop", you can't tell anything yet, was great to see Vettel to get his win and while Hammy at times has been great, he's pretty bonehead at times too (and certainly has had the best or at least top 2 car on both seasons) but not one of them has shown "greatness" enough that I could put money on any one of them. Either one of them could be one though.
09-16-2008, 03:24 PM
#127
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Nano,
The pass on GLock only showed how much KR squeezed Hamilton at SPA , glock and Hammy showed how to race giving room in the chicane, He did squeeze Glock on the exit , hard but fair , a lot fairer than KR was to His teammate Massa @ SPA....
Now with KR supposedly racing For Massa , watch his attitude , He is as Narcissistic as they come he will not support Massa in the way Massa supported him last year ...Watch !
Here Hamilton learned from the best , the only thing missing is the FIA in his back pocket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM
The pass on GLock only showed how much KR squeezed Hamilton at SPA , glock and Hammy showed how to race giving room in the chicane, He did squeeze Glock on the exit , hard but fair , a lot fairer than KR was to His teammate Massa @ SPA....
Now with KR supposedly racing For Massa , watch his attitude , He is as Narcissistic as they come he will not support Massa in the way Massa supported him last year ...Watch !
Here Hamilton learned from the best , the only thing missing is the FIA in his back pocket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM
There is hard... and then there is dirty. Once you get someone on the grass, it's a bit dirty. Ultimately there is nothing wrong, but he'll end up paying for it eventually. The incident with Webber could easily have turned for the worse.
KR and Hamilton at spa was a different story, it was entering a turn, both braked late, both locked wheels, and note Raikko was on the inside of the chicane... hamilton was on the outside (how do you overtake someone entering a chicane on the outside? cut)... events degenerated... Glock was shoved on the grass in straight line after the turn (look at Glock's hand signals after the deed). Dirty, period...
Remember start as SPA last year? Alonso had the line, Hamilton on the outside, everyone blasted Alonso? Differenthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr84NX_mUVg
FIA in is backpocket? F1 is not a democracy, it's a FIA dictatorship. ****-off the king, you live with the consequences. He has Mclaren and company to thank for that
Last edited by Nano; 09-16-2008 at 04:14 PM.
09-17-2008, 12:59 AM
#128
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Man, I think I have to at least partially agree with Wayne on something...
Honda definitely is out from FA's perpective. They want him and would pay him a lot (good for marketing, big company etc.), Kimi on the other hand isn't a "team builder", Like FA , who helped Renault to 2 WDC . Kimi needs a team that can win and with Help from RD , Hamilton and of course , Ferrari International Association Kimi could luck into 1 WDC, maybe 2 if he stays for another 5 yrs.
.
Honda definitely is out from FA's perpective. They want him and would pay him a lot (good for marketing, big company etc.), Kimi on the other hand isn't a "team builder", Like FA , who helped Renault to 2 WDC . Kimi needs a team that can win and with Help from RD , Hamilton and of course , Ferrari International Association Kimi could luck into 1 WDC, maybe 2 if he stays for another 5 yrs.
.
09-17-2008, 01:04 AM
#129
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There is hard... and then there is dirty. Once you get someone on the grass, it's a bit dirty. Ultimately there is nothing wrong, but he'll end up paying for it eventually. The incident with Webber could easily have turned for the worse.
43KR and Hamilton at spa was a different story, it was entering a turn, both braked late, both locked wheels, and note Raikko was on the inside of the chicane... hamilton was on the outside (how do you overtake someone entering a chicane on the outside? cut)... events degenerated... Glock was shoved on the grass in straight line after the turn (look at Glock's hand signals after the deed). Dirty, period... Remember start as SPA last year? Alonso had the line, Hamilton on the outside, everyone blasted Alonso? Different
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr84NX_mUVg
FIA in is backpocket? F1 is not a democracy, it's a FIA dictatorship. ****-off the king, you live with the consequences. He has Mclaren and company to thank for that
43KR and Hamilton at spa was a different story, it was entering a turn, both braked late, both locked wheels, and note Raikko was on the inside of the chicane... hamilton was on the outside (how do you overtake someone entering a chicane on the outside? cut)... events degenerated... Glock was shoved on the grass in straight line after the turn (look at Glock's hand signals after the deed). Dirty, period...
Remember start as SPA last year? Alonso had the line, Hamilton on the outside, everyone blasted Alonso? Differenthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr84NX_mUVg
FIA in is backpocket? F1 is not a democracy, it's a FIA dictatorship. ****-off the king, you live with the consequences. He has Mclaren and company to thank for that
I do agree that you have to be a dirty rotten Vermin to push someone out on the grass
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4
Interesting Poll:
F1 technical.com
What do you think of Hamilton's driving at Monza?
1. Great, excellent racing - 30%
2. Nothing too special - 11%
3. Must not happen again - 14%
4. Deserves a penalty - 44%
Wow ! Itc has long arms ............................
Last edited by A.Wayne; 09-17-2008 at 01:32 AM.
09-17-2008, 10:56 AM
#132
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Toyota is the one making the best use of the new ECU. There , well , "accelerative" spring board starts are becoming legendary ......
Nano , i was talking about KR squeeze move on Massa, He pushed him onto the grass.....
I do agree that you have to be a dirty rotten Vermin to push someone out on the grass
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4
Nano , i was talking about KR squeeze move on Massa, He pushed him onto the grass.....
I do agree that you have to be a dirty rotten Vermin to push someone out on the grass
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4
Yep, I'm starting to like Hamilton
I'm sure he will top Schumy on that scale... will see if he can pull it off.If he does, he has a great multiple WDC future, with all the "rotten vermin" love that will come with it.
