PSM in DE
09-10-2008, 12:46 AM
#16
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,802
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PSM is transparent to a good driver. Smoothness will not trigger it (and conversely if you trigger it you manhandled the car).
Now if you are a professional calibre driver, then maybe PSM will get in the way, but even at Barber the Pros use it and it rarely intervenes, because they know what they are doing and know the track as well.
As a novice/amateur the first thing you should understand is that any "instructor" who tells you turn off the PSM is an "idiot" with ***** for brains.
Why: It takes a lot to have the PSM interfere; and that "lot" is more that beginning/intermediate drivers have the capability to handle.
Now if you are a professional calibre driver, then maybe PSM will get in the way, but even at Barber the Pros use it and it rarely intervenes, because they know what they are doing and know the track as well.
As a novice/amateur the first thing you should understand is that any "instructor" who tells you turn off the PSM is an "idiot" with ***** for brains.
Why: It takes a lot to have the PSM interfere; and that "lot" is more that beginning/intermediate drivers have the capability to handle.
09-10-2008, 01:35 AM
#17
PSM is transparent to a good driver. Smoothness will not trigger it (and conversely if you trigger it you manhandled the car).
Now if you are a professional calibre driver, then maybe PSM will get in the way, but even at Barber the Pros use it and it rarely intervenes, because they know what they are doing and know the track as well.
As a novice/amateur the first thing you should understand is that any "instructor" who tells you turn off the PSM is an "idiot" with ***** for brains.
Why: It takes a lot to have the PSM interfere; and that "lot" is more that beginning/intermediate drivers have the capability to handle.
Now if you are a professional calibre driver, then maybe PSM will get in the way, but even at Barber the Pros use it and it rarely intervenes, because they know what they are doing and know the track as well.
As a novice/amateur the first thing you should understand is that any "instructor" who tells you turn off the PSM is an "idiot" with ***** for brains.
Why: It takes a lot to have the PSM interfere; and that "lot" is more that beginning/intermediate drivers have the capability to handle.
As an "instructor", I would never advise someone to turn it off if only due to liability concerns. The most I would do is advise them of the pros and cons of turning it off and letting them decide.
09-10-2008, 02:19 AM
#18
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
After that the PSM kept activating even going slowly around corners. People at the track suggested I just run with the PSM off. They should have told me to replace all four tires instead. Well anyways being a noob I lifted in two separate corners and spun both times. The first time I managed to keep it off the wall. The second time I just kissed the tire wall with my front and rear bumpers. I was lucky. But the moral of the story is; PSM WON'T SAVE YOUR *** IF ITS OFF.
Perhaps your example also demonstrates that suggestions from "people at the track" won't save your ***, either. "Common wisdom" is.... an oxymoron. In the end, we have to make our own intelligent decisions and own the consequences.
FWIW, I rarely turn PSM off - only after a few well-driven sessions, and with specific intent to experience and learn from the difference. Wouldn't want to be so nonchalant about it that I would ever not be keenly aware that it's off.
09-10-2008, 07:50 AM
#19
Race Car
I find that not having PSM, ABS or power steering for that matter, makes the whole experience more exciting
and makes me a better driver because I feel I am driving the car instead of the car driving me with the "electronic nanny".......
That is the reason why my Cayman S is the garage queen and I am taking an "old girl" to the track.....
and makes me a better driver because I feel I am driving the car instead of the car driving me with the "electronic nanny".......
That is the reason why my Cayman S is the garage queen and I am taking an "old girl" to the track.....
On the other hand, someone with the HP that Turbo Stan and others have... well, they have all the excitement they need with just that!
09-10-2008, 07:51 AM
#20
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ha! If it were only that simple (i.e., do what I say...)
I always explain to my students the pros and cons of turning PSM off versus leaving it on... Here's what I usually tell them: turning it off can be worth about 2 seconds per lap, however I've crashed twice with it off. So, the question is how much is 2 seconds a lap worth to you...
I always explain to my students the pros and cons of turning PSM off versus leaving it on... Here's what I usually tell them: turning it off can be worth about 2 seconds per lap, however I've crashed twice with it off. So, the question is how much is 2 seconds a lap worth to you...
PSM is transparent to a good driver. Smoothness will not trigger it (and conversely if you trigger it you manhandled the car).
Now if you are a professional calibre driver, then maybe PSM will get in the way, but even at Barber the Pros use it and it rarely intervenes, because they know what they are doing and know the track as well.
As a novice/amateur the first thing you should understand is that any "instructor" who tells you turn off the PSM is an "idiot" with ***** for brains.
Why: It takes a lot to have the PSM interfere; and that "lot" is more that beginning/intermediate drivers have the capability to handle.
Now if you are a professional calibre driver, then maybe PSM will get in the way, but even at Barber the Pros use it and it rarely intervenes, because they know what they are doing and know the track as well.
As a novice/amateur the first thing you should understand is that any "instructor" who tells you turn off the PSM is an "idiot" with ***** for brains.
Why: It takes a lot to have the PSM interfere; and that "lot" is more that beginning/intermediate drivers have the capability to handle.
09-10-2008, 09:28 AM
#21
Pro
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bluffton, SC
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When we had a 993 -- PSM was always turned off. However, we did learn, that should the car think it's in trouble - it turns the PSM back on to take care of the situation.
And Boston - I drove my car to the dealer this week - I didn't have any power steering. When you don't you can develop the very poor habit of feeding gas while making a turn... works great for no power steering but goes against everything we have learned on how to control a car.
And Boston - I drove my car to the dealer this week - I didn't have any power steering. When you don't you can develop the very poor habit of feeding gas while making a turn... works great for no power steering but goes against everything we have learned on how to control a car.
09-10-2008, 11:00 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
if the guy driving me around is called a "student" he drives with PSM ON!! period.
when do you turn it off? (for me) when you have been driving solo for so long that your speeds constantly cause the PSM to come on especially in the long sweepers. it is very upsetting at high speed tracks and that was when I turned mine off and didnt look back.
the whole learn to drive thing in a "lesser" car of hp and electronics is correct for a smooth learning curve but unrealistic for the P-car owner who want to learn how to drive his car at a DE. Just a fact of DE life.
when do you turn it off? (for me) when you have been driving solo for so long that your speeds constantly cause the PSM to come on especially in the long sweepers. it is very upsetting at high speed tracks and that was when I turned mine off and didnt look back.
the whole learn to drive thing in a "lesser" car of hp and electronics is correct for a smooth learning curve but unrealistic for the P-car owner who want to learn how to drive his car at a DE. Just a fact of DE life.
09-10-2008, 11:03 AM
#25
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
The parameters to invoke PSM on the 997 are much wider than the previous 996.
If the "sport" button is depressed the parameters are wider still.
That being said, if PSM is invoking on a 997, it is telling you that your driving style is flawed (your overdriving the car) and should be corrected...it is a teacher.
To a good driver it sits silently in the background.
If the "sport" button is depressed the parameters are wider still.
That being said, if PSM is invoking on a 997, it is telling you that your driving style is flawed (your overdriving the car) and should be corrected...it is a teacher.
To a good driver it sits silently in the background.
09-10-2008, 11:12 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
IMHO, one thing that nearly every PMS system (maybe the 997 gt3 in sport, I dont know because I havent driven in...) doesnt allow is letting the drover apply max amount of throttle as early as possible in a turn. With my 996 tt, I was never REALLY able to get on the power and unwind my hands as fast as I could have been because the computer brains in the car needed to analyze too much and wouldnt be quite as responsive to inputs (even if the light for PMS intervention didnt come on). I find on my 996 gt3, I am able to get on the throttle earlier and unwind my hands faster (which results in that LITTLE bit (however very fast) bit of slide) and feel I am a far better driver because of it.
-Drew
(ya, i have written more flowing pieces of prose...forgive me...)
-Drew
(ya, i have written more flowing pieces of prose...forgive me...)
09-10-2008, 11:18 AM
#27
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Posts: 5,351
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
In hindsight (in light of this thread), I wish during my first DE a couple days ago that I had:
1) Been allowed to keep PSM on (instructor wanted it off); and
2) Had correct tire pressures (my rears at 46 HOT was way too much).
I think I would have been able to more safely see what the car and I could do. For moments in time, I was able to reel guys in and passed them. The only time I was passed was by my own ****.
Great discussion.
1) Been allowed to keep PSM on (instructor wanted it off); and
2) Had correct tire pressures (my rears at 46 HOT was way too much).
I think I would have been able to more safely see what the car and I could do. For moments in time, I was able to reel guys in and passed them. The only time I was passed was by my own ****.
Great discussion.
09-10-2008, 11:26 AM
#28
if the guy driving me around is called a "student" he drives with PSM ON!! period.
when do you turn it off? (for me) when you have been driving solo for so long that your speeds constantly cause the PSM to come on especially in the long sweepers. it is very upsetting at high speed tracks and that was when I turned mine off and didnt look back.
the whole learn to drive thing in a "lesser" car of hp and electronics is correct for a smooth learning curve but unrealistic for the P-car owner who want to learn how to drive his car at a DE. Just a fact of DE life.
when do you turn it off? (for me) when you have been driving solo for so long that your speeds constantly cause the PSM to come on especially in the long sweepers. it is very upsetting at high speed tracks and that was when I turned mine off and didnt look back.
the whole learn to drive thing in a "lesser" car of hp and electronics is correct for a smooth learning curve but unrealistic for the P-car owner who want to learn how to drive his car at a DE. Just a fact of DE life.
Again, I won't tell someone they have to turn it off, but I'm not going to tell them they have to turn it on either.
09-10-2008, 11:29 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
From our PCA region's web site: "The PCA position is that if a car is equipped with Porsche Stability Management, or equivalent equipment, it is to be left on. If an individual elects to turn it off, they do so based strictly on their own decision."
09-10-2008, 03:12 PM
#30
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Don't forget, guys, this from the PSM side of things... PSM in one car is not the same as PSM in another. This applies both within, but especially across, brands of vehicles. A 986 can definitely behave quite differently than a 997, or one year to the next - so don't expect exactly the same experience, especially for the instructors.
The whole concept of "off" is a particularly good example. Some manufacturers say "off means off!" - others it's off till you hit the brake pedal, or till you get into ABS, or it just waits longer till it comes in.
So before you say (in particular, to a student) that it'll do this, or that (such as come back on and save your butt after turned off) - make sure you know it applies for that specific car!!!
YMMV!!!
As for my personal, professional opinion on the use in DE, I'm 100% of conviction that it should be 100% on when starting, then can be dialed back through Sport or Competition or whatever modes are available, over the course of a day, as the student shows merit. When I get in an unfamiliar car, or a familiar car I haven't been in recently - I start off in the full-system mode, to be sure, even if it's only for 1-2 laps. There's also something to be said for, on a multiple-day DE, starting in full-system-on for the first couple of laps. If nothing else, it provides a good fresh baseline on what was learned, what was forgotten, and what still needs to be learned. IMO.
The whole concept of "off" is a particularly good example. Some manufacturers say "off means off!" - others it's off till you hit the brake pedal, or till you get into ABS, or it just waits longer till it comes in.
So before you say (in particular, to a student) that it'll do this, or that (such as come back on and save your butt after turned off) - make sure you know it applies for that specific car!!!
YMMV!!!
As for my personal, professional opinion on the use in DE, I'm 100% of conviction that it should be 100% on when starting, then can be dialed back through Sport or Competition or whatever modes are available, over the course of a day, as the student shows merit. When I get in an unfamiliar car, or a familiar car I haven't been in recently - I start off in the full-system mode, to be sure, even if it's only for 1-2 laps. There's also something to be said for, on a multiple-day DE, starting in full-system-on for the first couple of laps. If nothing else, it provides a good fresh baseline on what was learned, what was forgotten, and what still needs to be learned. IMO.