This topic was stealing from another thread so I thought I would start a new one.

IMHO, it is just dumb not to use stability management until you are very experienced with your car. It seems especially careless to suggest it to a novice. When the SM kicks in it helps the student realize where the car's limit is without putting his car at risk. Losing control of a car in a high speed corner is a really bad time to practice car control and recovery.

Also I've heard lots of people say that PSM kicks in, even if turned off, when things get really hairy. I can tell you all first hand that this isn't true. On my first weekend as a solo my rears corded so I replaced them. After that the PSM kept activating even going slowly around corners. People at the track suggested I just run with the PSM off. They should have told me to replace all four tires instead. Well anyways being a noob I lifted in two separate corners and spun both times. The first time I managed to keep it off the wall. The second time I just kissed the tire wall with my front and rear bumpers. I was lucky. But the moral of the story is; PSM WON'T SAVE YOUR *** IF ITS OFF.

 

Here comes the flame war... I'm in the camp where you use the tools your particular car has - like ABS, PSM, whatever. But, it sounds like with or without, you were over-driving the car.

I learned with DSC in an M3 and it never engaged. The reason is I learned the "smooth is fast" method of driving. You could turn it on or off and it didn't matter. The only time it ever blinked was when I was cresting Lime Rock's Uphill slightly torqued (vs. purely square) or when I found somebody's invisible slippery fluid on the track - and DSC didn't save me, my counter-steering did. With the Porsche PSM it's even more in the background and 1.5 years in a 997S on the track and I never saw it even in a 20 degree side step at the top of the Esses at Watkins Glen. On, off, whatever - it didn't kick in because I didn't give it the excuse.

Two camps with novices - when I was one I did get "corrected" a few times in the M3 and that taught me not to do it. Was like having a teacher with a ruler ready to rap on your knuckles if you did something wrong. Learned really fast not to do it. Now if I went sideways or spun in those cases, maybe I would have learned quicker, or slower, car control - no way to know for sure. But the method resulted in very smooth driving.

When I went to my 964 and then my current GT3, the smooth driving I developed in a DSC then PSM equipped car paid off in spades. I could make the 964 dance and the GT3 is a dream to drive and micro corrections are a breeze.

Think of DeNiro in Ronin when asked by Sean Bean what kind of gun he likes. DeNiro says "whatever tool is in the tool box is what I use..."

One other thing - in one of my first years of DE I was at the TO of Big Bend at Lime Rock and here comes a nice new 328 Ci spinning into the tire wall. It was a very simple throttle lift induced oversteer situation, but the driver was a novice and didn't know what to do to correct after he "freaked out" and lifted. When asked why DSC didn't kick in to easily correct, he said "I'm a great driver, I don't need DSC - I turn it off as soon as I get in the car". We guessed at $20k in damage...

Bottom line is you should be able to drive as either a novice or advanced student without needing the help of PSM / DSC. Then it won't matter what "equipment" you are in - you'll be driving and not the electronics.

 

PSM IS always on...but it doest mean that it can defy physics...I got rid of my turbo because of PMS...I mean PSM...


-Drew

 

I put about 1 1/2 years worth of DE's in my 997S. I always kept PSM on, and it rarely kicked in. Each time it did, I was glad it was there to help me.

I run in the advanced group in our part of the world, and go at a reasonably fast pace. My feeling is that the PSM in the 997 is not all that intrusive, and if your inputs are smooth, and you keep the car's weight properly distributed, you will rarely have any intervention from PSM. For me at least, the 997 is so fast, and so expensive, that I'm happy to have the computer bail me out when I really screw up badly. Folks who recommend turning off PSM should really drive a 997 with it on first, and see what it is like.

 

I have a decent amount of experience (around 90 track days) and I still leave the PSM "on" in my 996. It's not the fastest way around the track and I sometimes have to drive around the system but I feel it's a worthwhile safety net given I'm only driving at a DE. That being said, I find the system is rarely triggered at most tracks.

 

I suspect my thread generated this one, and I'm looking forward to the discussion.

In hindsight, I wish my instructor had not insisted on me turning off my PSM in my first ever DE. Next time, I definitely will have the PSM on.

 

Stan, sorry about your incident, but at least it will buff out. PSM, DTC, etc are great safety devices, but even with PSM on, a serious lift on the throttle can get you into trouble. The system is great recovering a problem while it happens, but to my knowledge will not add throttle if needed to avoid TTO etc.

The best demonstration of how good the system can be was demonstrated to me at the Nurburgring by a racer I was sharing a car with. We both had euro delivery "3" series bimmers equipped with BMW "DTC". A portion of the track is particularly dangerous in the rain and we were driving it in the rain in a loop. About a mile down the track, then doubling back with 30 other cars for 90mins of practice time. (closed course). When returning, you can take any line you want and spread out. My track buddy is a great driver/racer and was convinced that with the DTC "on" he could keep his foot to the floor and let the car correct for poor judgement. With lots of room around us, he did this at full song and the car began to slide, but the DTC kicked in and made at least a dozen corrections; dropping throttle, braking, etc. I was impressed and told him never to that again with me in the car. The key was he did not lift. BTW do not try this at home, seriously!!!

 

Exactly right.

 

Counterpoint.

Nip bad habits early. PSM off allows for learning while speeds are still slow. PSM on allows people to get into the habit of lifting in a corner when in doubt.

Intermediate drivers have already acquired the thirst for more speed. The stakes are higher at higher speeds.

Once a student has pretty much learned the line and has demonstrated reasonably smooth input and good interaction with instructor, I see no reason not to turn PSM off as balance and car control becomes more of a focus.

Also, turning off PSM is a joint decision between the driver and the instructor, not unilateral.

Counterpoint off.

 

+1

That just may be quotable.

 

What the instructor says, goes. If you tell a student not to lift, he can't lift. If you tell a student to do a late turn in, he has to turn-in late. If you tell him to drive with SM off, then you should help pay the repair bills.

 

Yes on the do this, do that stuff... Do what the instructor says. But turning off stability management is something that weighs the risks at the track (runoff vs walls) and should be a mutual decision between instructor and student. At least in my opinion.

If a student is not comfortable with turning if off, then by all means discuss.

 

Agree 100000%.

 

Ha! If it were only that simple (i.e., do what I say...)

I always explain to my students the pros and cons of turning PSM off versus leaving it on... Here's what I usually tell them: turning it off can be worth about 2 seconds per lap, however I've crashed twice with it off. So, the question is how much is 2 seconds a lap worth to you...

 

I find that not having PSM, ABS or power steering for that matter, makes the whole experience more exciting
and makes me a better driver because I feel I am driving the car instead of the car driving me with the "electronic nanny".......

That is the reason why my Cayman S is the garage queen and I am taking an "old girl" to the track.....