lost control turn 17 at Sebring
06-28-2008, 02:45 AM
#61
Three Wheelin'
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Interesting video to watch because you were on the Yellow car, but the White car came across your line of vision swinging kind of wide back into the pits.
I think it's possible that your vision subconsciously switched to following that white car and threw your focus off the line you needed, that is you should have stayed on same line as the Yellow car.
Interesting to watch the video because it's a common phenomenon, you see cars on the street all the time follow a car that is turning, only to have to quickly correct.
I think your co-driver is also a bit distracting playing with your dash.
Next time slap his hand away and tell him to stop screwing around!
...wow, so Sebring really does look so bumpy.
Thanks for sharing and good luck!
I think it's possible that your vision subconsciously switched to following that white car and threw your focus off the line you needed, that is you should have stayed on same line as the Yellow car.
Interesting to watch the video because it's a common phenomenon, you see cars on the street all the time follow a car that is turning, only to have to quickly correct.
I think your co-driver is also a bit distracting playing with your dash.
Next time slap his hand away and tell him to stop screwing around!
...wow, so Sebring really does look so bumpy.
Thanks for sharing and good luck!
06-29-2008, 01:41 PM
#62
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Watch the wheel and listen to the engine note. The wheel was pointed straight and the revs were rising at the moment of spin. That sure looks like power oversteer to me, which makes sense in a 600hp modified turbo. I think the bumps reduced the rear traction and you got on the gas a bit too hard, starting the spin. You may have been able to just countersteer, but you also lifted as you got into the correction, making it more dramatic than it probably could have been (easy to say now). As Larry said, it probably would not have been an issue in the AWD setup, and you're going to have to relearn to drive in RWD mode mode a bit now.
I don't think it matters whether it was yor suspension set-up, bumps, line or whatever that caused the slide to happen, it's more important to think what to do when it happens next because it will happen again and more faster you get, more often you are in a situation where you need to react & correct.
It's one of those things as we always said when racing dirt bikes: "if you don't fall down, you're not trying hard enough". With track cars if you don't slide, push, or ever be in slightly out of control for a moment, you're not trying (= driving fast) enough.
If you had recognized the small slide earlier and lifted just a tiny bit or just kept the throttle in, it would've been "nothing".
Now you didn't correct early enough and once you were quite sideways, completely let go off the throttle and jumped on the brakes (that saved you from a lot of bad..).
As we know, T17 is bumby and this happens easily, every time I'm there, few times a day I counter steer, go back, counter steer again etc. through 17. Normally I don't lift while that happens but it's little different with my 290 hp than with your 600+ but my point is, that turn when driven at limit will require some correction every time you go through it.
Do this few times (= many times) and then it won't be an issue, instead, it's a slight correction, and "nothing" happens. From outside might not be even noticeable.
Juha's drifting proposal isn't bad at all since there are no snow around.
06-29-2008, 05:39 PM
#63
Race Car
hey tom, I only read 1st pg comments... but
I have often run that inside line... there's a dip before the bridge about a car width from the wall and the bump under the bridge... (actually a little valley leading to a drain 3 cars from the bridge) -a car width wider misses most of that inside bump...thus why many cross that white line entering the brake zone.
looks like you needed to unwind sooner, and probably fixated on the pitting cars
a softer rear bar might help too....
very nice save!
I have often run that inside line... there's a dip before the bridge about a car width from the wall and the bump under the bridge... (actually a little valley leading to a drain 3 cars from the bridge) -a car width wider misses most of that inside bump...thus why many cross that white line entering the brake zone.
looks like you needed to unwind sooner, and probably fixated on the pitting cars
a softer rear bar might help too....
very nice save!
06-30-2008, 12:51 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
You have a point in your drifting description below, but thats really not what im talking about. Ill agree that the corrections and the can be feel after its already broken loose. BUT, breaking loose is when its already gone. There are a 1000 things going on that you are processing as was said, and you dont want it to break loose (not a wiggle, a slide). you will absolutely catch a slide, if you return the wheel to "0" at the same rate as the back end is returning. if you go too far(where there is no feel at 0), you might end up causing a tank slapper.
Sure, again, i agree there is a lot of feel that goes on with car control, but of all the incar video ive seen where drivers get their cars bent out of shape, the one thing in common with most is hand position. You dont see near as many with guys with the hands fixed on the wheel. Think of driving a bike with the handle bars off. i could drve one , do wheelies, etc, but if you did a wheelie and looked around and put the wheel back down by "Feel" the wheel would touch down crooked, and you would probably go over the handlebars! I think this is the best analogy of my point.
Anyway, i did an experiment this weekend during qualifying. after i got a fast lap, i took one extra and moved my hands at the same position as this 911 turbo guy did. It was very interesting. I could easily correct a slide, but it was very unconfortable to drive it. you can see how the "off " positioning of the hands could cause a problem, like what was seen on the video.
Again, there is also not much "feel" on some of the powersteering porsches. On the M3, its very stiff and you get a lot more feed back steering-wise.
Before you argue the point again, take your car on a mountain road or one track lap and try and do a hot lap with your hands at 8 and 1.
Mk
Sure, again, i agree there is a lot of feel that goes on with car control, but of all the incar video ive seen where drivers get their cars bent out of shape, the one thing in common with most is hand position. You dont see near as many with guys with the hands fixed on the wheel. Think of driving a bike with the handle bars off. i could drve one , do wheelies, etc, but if you did a wheelie and looked around and put the wheel back down by "Feel" the wheel would touch down crooked, and you would probably go over the handlebars! I think this is the best analogy of my point.
Anyway, i did an experiment this weekend during qualifying. after i got a fast lap, i took one extra and moved my hands at the same position as this 911 turbo guy did. It was very interesting. I could easily correct a slide, but it was very unconfortable to drive it. you can see how the "off " positioning of the hands could cause a problem, like what was seen on the video.
Again, there is also not much "feel" on some of the powersteering porsches. On the M3, its very stiff and you get a lot more feed back steering-wise.
Before you argue the point again, take your car on a mountain road or one track lap and try and do a hot lap with your hands at 8 and 1.
Mk
BS.
1) I know where 0 is no matter where I move my hands...it's called feel. You can feel it in the wheel and your body/mind can remember how much you've turned the wheel. You're already processing a few thousand other things while cornering...it's certainly not outside of your mind's ability to keep track of how much you've turned the wheel as well.
2) When applying counter steer, the "center" is meaningless. You apply counter steer until the point that you catch the slide...it matters not where center is, only that you have enough feel to turn the wheel appropriately. My thought process is never that I need to get back to center and then go 10 degrees more...I simply react and turn the wheel until I feel the car settle back down and then turn the wheel back until the car is going in the direction I want it to go again. As much as I think drifting is a silly sport, watch those guys for a minute and tell me whether they care where "center" is when they move their hands all over the wheel.
1) I know where 0 is no matter where I move my hands...it's called feel. You can feel it in the wheel and your body/mind can remember how much you've turned the wheel. You're already processing a few thousand other things while cornering...it's certainly not outside of your mind's ability to keep track of how much you've turned the wheel as well.
2) When applying counter steer, the "center" is meaningless. You apply counter steer until the point that you catch the slide...it matters not where center is, only that you have enough feel to turn the wheel appropriately. My thought process is never that I need to get back to center and then go 10 degrees more...I simply react and turn the wheel until I feel the car settle back down and then turn the wheel back until the car is going in the direction I want it to go again. As much as I think drifting is a silly sport, watch those guys for a minute and tell me whether they care where "center" is when they move their hands all over the wheel.
06-30-2008, 12:55 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
06-30-2008, 01:01 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
i agree, its much more important for the up and coming DE guys to get that hand thing straigtened out. Ive also had some slides with the hands quickly moving the wheel to get the car collected where 2-10 would be impossible . As i made the point to Brian, i think it helps contol the initial point where the car gets out of control. gathering it back up, i tend to agree, its more of a feel thing.
Mk
Mk
I don't know how much I subscribe to this on a top level. I do understand your points, and it probably holds true for many drivers, but I cannot imagine that a pro or top level amateur racer depends on their hand position to know where straight ahead is. I honestly think that if one cannot feel it in the wheel and in the attitude of the car, then they are not there yet. I have seen it in videos and I myself have cranked in close to a full turn of the wheel to counter a slide, and have come right back to center. Try that with your hands locked at 10 & 2.
BTW, I think that the yellow stripe on the Cup Car wheels is pretty funny. If you are looking at it to see where straight ahead on the wheel is, you've got bigger problems than that.
BTW, I think that the yellow stripe on the Cup Car wheels is pretty funny. If you are looking at it to see where straight ahead on the wheel is, you've got bigger problems than that.
06-30-2008, 03:09 PM
#67
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One of the other things to think about. ever notice that on some "pushy" turns, it doesnt matter how far you turn the wheel, as the capable arc path of the car is realized. with his hands in this position, his brain was turning the car with his refereces off a little the "feel " is removed to a certain extent with the power steering, so in the end, he could have too much input. the 20 or so extra degrees is certainly enough to start the car to step out when the rear end holding capabilities are exceeded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRG6Y791iBE&
PS-Learn how to use the 'Shift' key.
06-30-2008, 03:58 PM
#69
Drifting
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Funny enough, his hand position through T17 looks pretty similar to Chris' in his video where he leaves one hand around 9 and the other just above the spoke on the wheel at 2-2.5 only the OP seems to shift his left hand down a bit so that his hands are more directly across each other on the wheel. Chris seems to be getting around the track alright...
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/439690-watkins-glen-993-rsr-video.html
I think WAY too much is being made of hand position for something that was simply a matter of not unwinding the wheel enough.
06-30-2008, 04:07 PM
#70
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Mark, I don't know how you got that thing to turn into your pit stall! Talk about plowing like a pig! 
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
06-30-2008, 04:19 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Yep, that was the first time in 7 seasons where the car was borderline "why bother". Ironically enough, it was my fastest time out at laguna, as ugly as it was. Im just glad that race there was no wheel to wheel racing, it would have been a little dangerous to race wheel to wheel. Thats what happens when you put a wing on a car that cost more than the car I got it all balanced out now, after taking wing out, adding a splitter and some hood vents. now, its very neutral.
hands (or thumb) at 2 and 10.
mk
I got it all balanced out now, after taking wing out, adding a splitter and some hood vents. now, its very neutral.hands (or thumb) at 2 and 10.
mk
06-30-2008, 04:24 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
actually, his left hand is grabing the wheel below the 9o'clock spoke, so i called it 8 and the other is up above 2 and called it 1. It doesnt matter, if it was max angelli driving, it wouldnt be a topic, but its someone that has a hot car and wants feed back. this is just one of the reasons the car stepped out, a little beyond control. he gathered it up nicely and was on his way. If you notice, he is shuffling his hands on the wheel well before hand. This is not good. Its not that you cant drive that way, its just (in my opinion) lengthens the time it takes to get good, and could be dangerous in some cases. thats all .
put it this way, there is no driving book, instructor, racer or other that would advise such a techique, right? Ok done! (unless you lost your power steering and needed the leverage
)
Mk
put it this way, there is no driving book, instructor, racer or other that would advise such a techique, right? Ok done! (unless you lost your power steering and needed the leverage
)Mk
Why would I do that? The driver in question doesn't have his hands at 8 and 1. His left hand is at 9 and his right hand moves up a few degrees to 2, 2.5. They are almost directly across the wheel from each other.
Funny enough, his hand position through T17 looks pretty similar to Chris' in his video where he leaves one hand around 9 and the other just above the spoke on the wheel at 2-2.5 only the OP seems to shift his left hand down a bit so that his hands are more directly across each other on the wheel. Chris seems to be getting around the track alright...
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439690
I think WAY too much is being made of hand position for something that was simply a matter of not unwinding the wheel enough.
Funny enough, his hand position through T17 looks pretty similar to Chris' in his video where he leaves one hand around 9 and the other just above the spoke on the wheel at 2-2.5 only the OP seems to shift his left hand down a bit so that his hands are more directly across each other on the wheel. Chris seems to be getting around the track alright...
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439690
I think WAY too much is being made of hand position for something that was simply a matter of not unwinding the wheel enough.
06-30-2008, 04:26 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
That isn't "Irony" its "Coincidence".
Shift key? You dont like my "text-like-sloppy" typing?
I'll see if I can fix that.
Mk
Shift key? You dont like my "text-like-sloppy" typing?
I'll see if I can fix that.
Mk
Oh man, this is like the definition of irony.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRG6Y791iBE&
PS-Learn how to use the 'Shift' key.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRG6Y791iBE&
PS-Learn how to use the 'Shift' key.
06-30-2008, 04:35 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Yes, his hands are definitely at 8 oclock. watch it again its pretty obvious. Just before turn 17, he cheats down to below the cross member of the wheel. If 9 is the crossmember, he is at 8. Then, the right hand goes a hand or so above where normally would be 10. (I call it 1oclock).
So, No, nothing like what Chris is doing. He is not really doing anything wrong. Cheating up on the right hand after a shift, doesnt do any of the things I'm talking about. I think you will notice in my video from this weekend, i have a post shift grab in the same area. However, if he was to grab the wheel at 4oclock, I might have a comment, but that would never happen. Raising the hands only desensitizes the input. Only shifting lower does it cause a concern. Plus, the dominant hand is the left hand which really is the side your brain equates to neutral in my opinion. Notice, his left hand is locked at the cross structure around 9 or 10oclock-ish.
Mk
So, No, nothing like what Chris is doing. He is not really doing anything wrong. Cheating up on the right hand after a shift, doesnt do any of the things I'm talking about. I think you will notice in my video from this weekend, i have a post shift grab in the same area. However, if he was to grab the wheel at 4oclock, I might have a comment, but that would never happen. Raising the hands only desensitizes the input. Only shifting lower does it cause a concern. Plus, the dominant hand is the left hand which really is the side your brain equates to neutral in my opinion. Notice, his left hand is locked at the cross structure around 9 or 10oclock-ish.
Mk
Why would I do that? The driver in question doesn't have his hands at 8 and 1. His left hand is at 9 and his right hand moves up a few degrees to 2, 2.5. They are almost directly across the wheel from each other.
Funny enough, his hand position through T17 looks pretty similar to Chris' in his video where he leaves one hand around 9 and the other just above the spoke on the wheel at 2-2.5 only the OP seems to shift his left hand down a bit so that his hands are more directly across each other on the wheel. Chris seems to be getting around the track alright...
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439690
I think WAY too much is being made of hand position for something that was simply a matter of not unwinding the wheel enough.
Funny enough, his hand position through T17 looks pretty similar to Chris' in his video where he leaves one hand around 9 and the other just above the spoke on the wheel at 2-2.5 only the OP seems to shift his left hand down a bit so that his hands are more directly across each other on the wheel. Chris seems to be getting around the track alright...
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439690
I think WAY too much is being made of hand position for something that was simply a matter of not unwinding the wheel enough.
Last edited by mark kibort; 07-01-2008 at 11:58 AM.
06-30-2008, 07:45 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Interesting video to watch because you were on the Yellow car, but the White car came across your line of vision swinging kind of wide back into the pits.
I think it's possible that your vision subconsciously switched to following that white car and threw your focus off the line you needed, that is you should have stayed on same line as the Yellow car.
Interesting to watch the video because it's a common phenomenon, you see cars on the street all the time follow a car that is turning, only to have to quickly correct.
I think your co-driver is also a bit distracting playing with your dash.
Next time slap his hand away and tell him to stop screwing around!
...wow, so Sebring really does look so bumpy.
Thanks for sharing and good luck!
I think it's possible that your vision subconsciously switched to following that white car and threw your focus off the line you needed, that is you should have stayed on same line as the Yellow car.
Interesting to watch the video because it's a common phenomenon, you see cars on the street all the time follow a car that is turning, only to have to quickly correct.
I think your co-driver is also a bit distracting playing with your dash.
Next time slap his hand away and tell him to stop screwing around!
...wow, so Sebring really does look so bumpy.
Thanks for sharing and good luck!