lost control turn 17 at Sebring
#31
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As to the comment on the other turbo It just looked to me he got on the power sooner, and I have to say you did a great job on recovery. I have been driving on sebring for 4 years now in a 500 hp 930, I am no expert but i usually track out more on that turn. Also if that was your only incident you are doing great. I have stayed on gas and some times increased gas and have drifted out of that situation. I will also be at sebring this weekend with my new to me gt3. Now I to have to learn to drive and not rely on hp to keep up.
#32
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Nice catch!
#33
I'm in....
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Obviously you shouldn't be tracking such an expensive high horse powered beast! ![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Just pack an extra pair of shorts this weekend. Wish I was going to be there.
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Just pack an extra pair of shorts this weekend. Wish I was going to be there.
#35
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Tom...Holy Code Brown Moment, Batman!! Wow, helluva nice, clean, calm save.
What did your passenger do on your switch panel right before your spin??? Did he turn something off or on?
To me, the sound indicated that--as is human--your foot came on & off the throttle rapidly as the frequency of the bumps pushed the floorboard up to your feet. It also sounded as if the rear was VERY stiff, considering how dramatic sounding the on/off was. Sounded as if it happened to be "off" at the split second the rear got light over a bump, making it very unsettled, whereupon when it got back "on" again, and the turbo came on, around she went.
#36
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you dont get it. its instinct to be thinking that neutral is 10 and 2. If you are off by even a few degrees, this inhibits you natural ability to know where 0 is and to what degree you are applying steering input. as racers, we go into turns like that at far greater speeds, on all sorts of track conditions, and all sorts of different lines, taking all sorts of action. (gas, brake, avoidance, etc etc). by keeping your hands neutral, especally in a DE on stree tires, you can respond and correct much easier, and not go past the point of no return quite as easy.
One of the other things to think about. ever notice that on some "pushy" turns, it doesnt matter how far you turn the wheel, as the capable arc path of the car is realized. with his hands in this position, his brain was turning the car with his refereces off a little the "feel " is removed to a certain extent with the power steering, so in the end, he could have too much input. the 20 or so extra degrees is certainly enough to start the car to step out when the rear end holding capabilities are exceeded. His reaction time, already at a 20 degree disadvantage , is part of the reason he is not able to catch it in time. I would bet that same turn at the same speed with the hands in the proper position, might have yielded a non event. Ive had plenty of student drivers when i helped out DE groups, do this and the feed back was always positive.
And i if you look at my hands on my 928, it is always at a 10 reference point. (neutral and centered) the "2" is sometimes missing due to my gear shift issue. now that i finally have some stability in the shifter area, you can see the other hand spending more time at the 2 position.
by the way, watching max angelli in car, and even kleinubing, there are many times where they are comfortable enough to drive with one hand. but if you watch them, they always are at 10-2, always!
The 928 power steering is easy enough to contol with one hand. the key point is that one hand or two, they need to be centered, and certainly not be moving or shuffling around the wheel. I think even you can agree with that.
Sounds like you might need a few laps against the 21 year old junkyard, one handed bandit, 928.
I think i might be GTS-4 Ill have to check!![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
mk
One of the other things to think about. ever notice that on some "pushy" turns, it doesnt matter how far you turn the wheel, as the capable arc path of the car is realized. with his hands in this position, his brain was turning the car with his refereces off a little the "feel " is removed to a certain extent with the power steering, so in the end, he could have too much input. the 20 or so extra degrees is certainly enough to start the car to step out when the rear end holding capabilities are exceeded. His reaction time, already at a 20 degree disadvantage , is part of the reason he is not able to catch it in time. I would bet that same turn at the same speed with the hands in the proper position, might have yielded a non event. Ive had plenty of student drivers when i helped out DE groups, do this and the feed back was always positive.
And i if you look at my hands on my 928, it is always at a 10 reference point. (neutral and centered) the "2" is sometimes missing due to my gear shift issue. now that i finally have some stability in the shifter area, you can see the other hand spending more time at the 2 position.
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
The 928 power steering is easy enough to contol with one hand. the key point is that one hand or two, they need to be centered, and certainly not be moving or shuffling around the wheel. I think even you can agree with that.
Sounds like you might need a few laps against the 21 year old junkyard, one handed bandit, 928.
I think i might be GTS-4 Ill have to check!
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
mk
That's silly...at no point were his hands in a position that caused him to have less control over the car. With his hand placement, he had MORE than enough room to make the needed correction (and actually did a pretty good job of collecting the car without spinning or shooting back to the inside). Are you saying that you can actually see the amount of feedback he's getting through the wheel and that that feedback is somehow very different because his hands are 1-2 inches from the 10-2 positions? How do you do that?
I still don't know why you harp on 10-2 so much when your videos in your own signature show you with some of the most non-standard hand positioning I've ever seen in a race car.![Confused](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
I still don't know why you harp on 10-2 so much when your videos in your own signature show you with some of the most non-standard hand positioning I've ever seen in a race car.
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Last edited by mark kibort; 06-27-2008 at 04:00 AM.
#37
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I dont think it caused the slide, i think it kept him from feeling the slide and reacting quick enough to it. the hand position on the wheel seems like only a couple of inches off, but thats near 20 degrees. we react so quickly by feel and instinct, that when your control stick is that far preloaced in the wrong direction, it can cause a lag or over correction in reacton to the car breaking loose. If you want proof, center your steering wheel off about 2 degrees and go drive a mountain road. Its not very comfortable.
If you watch the video carefully and watch his hand positions. when most of us start to let the wheel uncoil at this point in a sweeper , or go to neutral on the exit, picture where his hands would normally be on the wheel, just before it starts to break loose. you will notice that the position is still fairly up on the dash, indicating a pretty high level of steering input, for an exit of a sweeper. However, based on the skewed hand position, he wouldnt take notice of that because both hands are near even,. (but they arent really)
the slide starts under power, due to sligtly too much input and componding the issue is the correction is not given a fair start either, due to them being off the 20 degrees as well.
Now, his correction was awesome. he did a nice correct and uncoil of the wheel and just slide down the middle. slides are are all about feel as street cars have so much rotation lock to lock. On an indy car or spec racer, you could do that without moving your hands, but in our street car race car conversions, its elbows and .... when it gets way bent out of shape. (or when you go drifting
)
Mk
If you watch the video carefully and watch his hand positions. when most of us start to let the wheel uncoil at this point in a sweeper , or go to neutral on the exit, picture where his hands would normally be on the wheel, just before it starts to break loose. you will notice that the position is still fairly up on the dash, indicating a pretty high level of steering input, for an exit of a sweeper. However, based on the skewed hand position, he wouldnt take notice of that because both hands are near even,. (but they arent really)
the slide starts under power, due to sligtly too much input and componding the issue is the correction is not given a fair start either, due to them being off the 20 degrees as well.
Now, his correction was awesome. he did a nice correct and uncoil of the wheel and just slide down the middle. slides are are all about feel as street cars have so much rotation lock to lock. On an indy car or spec racer, you could do that without moving your hands, but in our street car race car conversions, its elbows and .... when it gets way bent out of shape. (or when you go drifting
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Mk
i have never driven that track ( but would like to) ... seams to be a untimely bump with slight pinch of wheel... great correction on your part... so i am siding with dr jupe..
i dont know why your hand position would impact the the incident .. but that is just me... ditto to the statement of Bryan Watts... i dont think that cased the slide
i dont know why your hand position would impact the the incident .. but that is just me... ditto to the statement of Bryan Watts... i dont think that cased the slide
#39
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BTW, I think that the yellow stripe on the Cup Car wheels is pretty funny. If you are looking at it to see where straight ahead on the wheel is, you've got bigger problems than that.
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#40
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I cannot imagine that a pro or top level amateur racer depends on their hand position to know where straight ahead is. I honestly think that if one cannot feel it in the wheel and in the attitude of the car, then they are not there yet.
BTW, I think that the yellow stripe on the Cup Car wheels is pretty funny. If you are looking at it to see where straight ahead on the wheel is, you've got bigger problems than that.
BTW, I think that the yellow stripe on the Cup Car wheels is pretty funny. If you are looking at it to see where straight ahead on the wheel is, you've got bigger problems than that.
#41
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1) I know where 0 is no matter where I move my hands...it's called feel. You can feel it in the wheel and your body/mind can remember how much you've turned the wheel. You're already processing a few thousand other things while cornering...it's certainly not outside of your mind's ability to keep track of how much you've turned the wheel as well.
2) When applying counter steer, the "center" is meaningless. You apply counter steer until the point that you catch the slide...it matters not where center is, only that you have enough feel to turn the wheel appropriately. My thought process is never that I need to get back to center and then go 10 degrees more...I simply react and turn the wheel until I feel the car settle back down and then turn the wheel back until the car is going in the direction I want it to go again. As much as I think drifting is a silly sport, watch those guys for a minute and tell me whether they care where "center" is when they move their hands all over the wheel.
#42
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the full monty suspension set up!!
#43
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Number one, good job on the recovery, you stayed pretty much in the middle of the turn, I don't think you even got that close to the tire barrier and wall. You certainly didn't get as close as you would under a normal track out after going through 17. We were usually right out to the tires on exit. Second, I think the car was really upset by the washboarding in good old Sunset, which is the majority of the cause for the tail hopping out on you. I've been through there before and I swear all four wheels were off the ground and I was just letting Sir Issac Newton drive (or "fly") when that happened. If you lifted at all, it was not noticeable in the audio. I would also hope you weren't trail braking or otherwise touching the brake, as you were way beyond the apex and should have been feeding in the power big-time by that point. Third, as a contributing factor you were concerned about the car you were overtaking and trying to give him room and then you got distracted by the two cars on pit-in, which as someone already stated, I don't think were in your way at all. All of that distracted you enough to where you pinched the car, not letting it run free on-line through the corner, and you were distracted enough to not correct quick enough to prevent the slide. Overall though, you looked pretty smooth.
great comments, thanks!!
#44
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