PCA DE Observers Please
#46
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AFAIK, PCA takes a very dim view of minors being alowed to drive a car on a closed course, whether it's an autocross or a race track. I would also surmise that PCA's risk management philosophy would be at odds with non-registered entrants on the track. However, I'm guessing that you already know this. As Manny and Darkside have suggested, you really need to contact Pete Tremper, PCA's national track chair.
Last edited by Mark in Baltimore; 06-18-2008 at 10:13 AM. Reason: typo
#47
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Or even riding with an Instructor if they are under 18. I have been black flagged more than once because I was thought to have a "kid" riding with me. Each time it was a student registered for the event, However they were fairly small and sitting in my Kirkey seat that is on the floor.
#49
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Brian, it's actually one of PCA's National minimum DE standards that one of the drivers be an approved event instructor. Passenger also has to be a registered entrants. I'd copy and paste that section, but can't figure out how to do it on a pdf file, so here's the link and no, I don't have these memorized.....always having to go back and check when someone asks ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
http://pca.org/members/library/PCA_DE_Guidelines.pdf
[QUOTE=Brian P;5521749]I thought item #2 was a recommendation but not actually part of the insurance. I.e., 2 people are allowed in the car so long as they are both registered participants - neither needs to be an instructor. I understand that many regions additionally enforce that at least one of the passengers needs to be an instructor. (I know that PCA has switched insurance companies over the past few years, so this rule may have changed)
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http://pca.org/members/library/PCA_DE_Guidelines.pdf
[QUOTE=Brian P;5521749]I thought item #2 was a recommendation but not actually part of the insurance. I.e., 2 people are allowed in the car so long as they are both registered participants - neither needs to be an instructor. I understand that many regions additionally enforce that at least one of the passengers needs to be an instructor. (I know that PCA has switched insurance companies over the past few years, so this rule may have changed)
QUOTE]
#50
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Brian, it's actually one of PCA's National minimum DE standards that one of the drivers be an approved event instructor. Passenger also has to be a registered entrants. I'd copy and paste that section, but can't figure out how to do it on a pdf file, so here's the link and no, I don't have these memorized.....always having to go back and check when someone asks ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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#51
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Insurance bases their rates on our risk management. Our stated minimum standards are just one of example of many.
#52
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Damnit, I only look 16...........
#54
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I was gonna say that.
All of the PCA CIs I have come in contact with were superbly, overtly, by the book strict about vocalizing and reinforcing rules that relate to safety. Which ends up being just about everything.
There are really unusual things presented here and if it was precedented in PCA, we would have heard about it before. Sounds more likely like a substitute CI out of his/her element.
Seems we are short on some facts here.
All of the PCA CIs I have come in contact with were superbly, overtly, by the book strict about vocalizing and reinforcing rules that relate to safety. Which ends up being just about everything.
There are really unusual things presented here and if it was precedented in PCA, we would have heard about it before. Sounds more likely like a substitute CI out of his/her element.
Seems we are short on some facts here.
#55
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Manny, thanks for getting involved and keeping the thread to the facts.
Threads like this really fry my tail pipe.
Are we to believe that this guy (the CTI) lives in an autonomous world where he makes all his own rules?
What?? No one noticed these horrifying transgressions but YOU got all the facts!!
Give me a break.
Or perhaps the entire DE team is all a bunch of hooligans and outlaws!
Put up or shut up.
Threads like this really fry my tail pipe.
Are we to believe that this guy (the CTI) lives in an autonomous world where he makes all his own rules?
What?? No one noticed these horrifying transgressions but YOU got all the facts!!
Give me a break.
Or perhaps the entire DE team is all a bunch of hooligans and outlaws!
Put up or shut up.
#56
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Manny, thanks for getting involved and keeping the thread to the facts.
Threads like this really fry my tail pipe.
Are we to believe that this guy (the CTI) lives in an autonomous world where he makes all his own rules?
What?? No one noticed these horrifying transgressions but YOU got all the facts!!
Give me a break.
Or perhaps the entire DE team is all a bunch of hooligans and outlaws!
Put up or shut up.
Threads like this really fry my tail pipe.
Are we to believe that this guy (the CTI) lives in an autonomous world where he makes all his own rules?
What?? No one noticed these horrifying transgressions but YOU got all the facts!!
Give me a break.
Or perhaps the entire DE team is all a bunch of hooligans and outlaws!
Put up or shut up.
#57
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Manny, thanks for getting involved and keeping the thread to the facts.
Threads like this really fry my tail pipe.
Are we to believe that this guy (the CTI) lives in an autonomous world where he makes all his own rules?
What?? No one noticed these horrifying transgressions but YOU got all the facts!!
Give me a break.
Or perhaps the entire DE team is all a bunch of hooligans and outlaws!
Put up or shut up.
Threads like this really fry my tail pipe.
Are we to believe that this guy (the CTI) lives in an autonomous world where he makes all his own rules?
What?? No one noticed these horrifying transgressions but YOU got all the facts!!
Give me a break.
Or perhaps the entire DE team is all a bunch of hooligans and outlaws!
Put up or shut up.
Give the poster a break. Even if he made it all up, to what end? He's asking for advice so I tried to join others in giving some constructively.
#58
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IIRC, SCCA has a program for 16 year old racers called 'speed freaks'
if it in fact was a PCA event, and and insurance regs were violated, then you must follow up. -that type of thing can end the entire DE program nationally.
However, I have wonder if I should trust your opinion....
if it in fact was a PCA event, and and insurance regs were violated, then you must follow up. -that type of thing can end the entire DE program nationally.
However, I have wonder if I should trust your opinion....
#59
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I was more thinking along the lines of the infamous "Dazed and Confused" (if you haven't seen it there's a funny quote about high school girls) ... sheesh, take a joke, it's an internet forum
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Now back to the matter at hand since my attempt at humor OBVIOUSLY fell on deaf ears. I think it's somewhat cowardly to post all of this here instead of bringing it up with local / regional / national officers - it SCREAMS "drama llama" to me, registering an account to (deserved or not / wrong or not) post libel and cause potential defamation - even IF everything you said was exactly how it happened (not going to question / get into that) you've now put said CI at such a disadvantage with his/her peers ... if you REALLY cared / were worried you'd escalate this properly, and in my opinion, the proper place is NOT here.
#60
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What would you do if you were the observer of a PCA Driver Ed and noticed...
1. The Chief Instructor knowingly let a 16-year old in to attend the club's DE
PCA DE Rule 26
Entrant Age: The minimum age for any driving entrant is eighteen years.
Then you became aware that the club's DE before that -- the same Chief Instructor
2. Let a participant not registered as an instructor take his mechanic, not registered as anything for the event -- out for hotlaps.
PCA DE Rule 8
Car Occupancy: If two people are in a car, one must be an approved event instructor. and the other must be a registered entrant in the event. There are no exceptions to this rule.
3. Did not want to accept a qualified instructor with excellent recommendations from other clubs because of a business reason. And you learned that more instructors were needed for that event.
PCA DE 22
Chief Instructor: The event chairman must designate an individual as Chief Instructor who may also be the Attitude Adjustment Counselor.
4. During the event, the CI would not take a blue student out to see if he was ready to solo or not, when asked by the student's instructor.
Also falls under PCA DE Rule 22
And then someone made you aware that two DEs before that last one, that same Chief Instructor
5. Accepted being the responsibility of being Chief Instructor and failed to show up until the Saturday track time was over.
Couldn't find a minimum standard PCA Rule for that one maybe it falls under common courtesy.
All comments, opinions and observations are welcome here.
P.S. Sorry I'm new here, I would have liked this to have made this a poll, but I don't know if I'd know what the poll would have suggested. I guess that is why I would like your comments.
Like many others I am puzzled why you chose to post the above here while hiding behind a screen name.
A few comments:
1) Was the 16 year old really 16? Was she driving or just attending? If she was really less than 18 and driving - a serious mistake was made.
2)Perhaps some regions permit taking a passenger providing the passenger has signed the waivers? In my region the driver must be an instructor.
3) The CI is at liberty to decide who he or she wants to teach at his event. Are the instructor in question? What is/was the alleged "business reason"?
4) The CI is a very busy guy usually and has enough students and check rides of his own to manage. Were you the blue student by any chance? In my region, instructors are expected to make the decision to promote or not, on their own. Asking for a second opinion is a cop out.
On the other hand if the student was passed over for promotion by the original instructor and demanded the CI perform the check ride, I'd do the same, i.e. send him/her out with another instructor to eliminate any bias caused by bad chemistry unless I was available myself, which is seldom thr case.
5) Not being there is not a mortal sin provided the responsibility was properly designated. I wouldn't do it myself, but I wouldn't make a big deal of it, especially not knowing the circumstances. Certainly not against any rules I know of. The CI is a v-o-l-u-n-t-e-e-r like everyone else. You make it sound like he was AWOL.
What is your motivation for this campaign?
Lastly as others have said, why post it here? Does the region have a president? A track chair, a board of directors? Failing all that, take it to Pete Tremper National DE Chair, or Arlene Novak, National Safety Chair. You'd have to use your real name though - sorta like Manny and me.
Regards,