Mark in Baltimore

AFAIK, PCA takes a very dim view of minors being alowed to drive a car on a closed course, whether it's an autocross or a race track. I would also surmise that PCA's risk management philosophy would be at odds with non-registered entrants on the track. However, I'm guessing that you already know this. As Manny and Darkside have suggested, you really need to contact Pete Tremper, PCA's national track chair.

Bull

Or even riding with an Instructor if they are under 18. I have been black flagged more than once because I was thought to have a "kid" riding with me. Each time it was a student registered for the event, However they were fairly small and sitting in my Kirkey seat that is on the floor.

John H

Does she float?

Manny Alban

Brian, it's actually one of PCA's National minimum DE standards that one of the drivers be an approved event instructor. Passenger also has to be a registered entrants. I'd copy and paste that section, but can't figure out how to do it on a pdf file, so here's the link and no, I don't have these memorized.....always having to go back and check when someone asks

http://pca.org/members/library/PCA_DE_Guidelines.pdf




[QUOTE=Brian P;5521749]I thought item #2 was a recommendation but not actually part of the insurance. I.e., 2 people are allowed in the car so long as they are both registered participants - neither needs to be an instructor. I understand that many regions additionally enforce that at least one of the passengers needs to be an instructor. (I know that PCA has switched insurance companies over the past few years, so this rule may have changed)
QUOTE]

Brian P

I know that it's part of the National minimum standards, but that doesn't mean that it is required by insurance. I think that we hold ourselves to a higher standard than what is necessary from the insurance regs (and I'm not saying that this is wrong).

Manny Alban

Insurance bases their rates on our risk management. Our stated minimum standards are just one of example of many.

todinlaw

Ok tell me what ones you are going to so I can keep my daughter at home.

SeanR

Damnit, I only look 16...........

James-man

I was gonna say that.


All of the PCA CIs I have come in contact with were superbly, overtly, by the book strict about vocalizing and reinforcing rules that relate to safety. Which ends up being just about everything.

There are really unusual things presented here and if it was precedented in PCA, we would have heard about it before. Sounds more likely like a substitute CI out of his/her element.

Seems we are short on some facts here.

DanS911

Manny, thanks for getting involved and keeping the thread to the facts.

Threads like this really fry my tail pipe.
Are we to believe that this guy (the CTI) lives in an autonomous world where he makes all his own rules?
What?? No one noticed these horrifying transgressions but YOU got all the facts!!
Give me a break.
Or perhaps the entire DE team is all a bunch of hooligans and outlaws!
Put up or shut up.

RJay

If I had not personally been involved, as VPoA with a similar abuse of #2 by a member of the TC, not the CI in this case, I might agree with you, but sadly I have. Whether, it was a lack of understanding, or whether it was a flat out flaunting of the rules, I cant say, but my opinion was it was the latter. Can I prove it in court, no, but AFAIC, I was lied to about it afterwards (no it was my student, not my girlfriend) and that suspicions were confirmed by a least one third party observer. It was dealt with at a local board level, as there was no tangible proof and denials, we simply made sure that the rules were explicit, as would be the punishment for any future transgression.

RonCT

Dan - You must belong to the perfect chapter and experienced only perfect DEs. I have nothing to do with the situation of this post, but I've been around for a while and I think people here know that I don't make things up. I can honestly say that in say the past 5 years while driving with about 12 different chapters / clubs (various car labels) I've personally witnessed situations just like those outlined in the original post. I still remember one situation where there was a "guy" that showed up and convinced his buddy who was in charge to let him go out in a session of intermediate drivers to "test and tune" his Detroit muscle car - almost killed a few people including himself. Of course a bunch of us at all of these events are proactive and reported every incident we witnessed and fortunately they were not repeated.

Give the poster a break. Even if he made it all up, to what end? He's asking for advice so I tried to join others in giving some constructively.

mrbill_fl

IIRC, SCCA has a program for 16 year old racers called 'speed freaks'

if it in fact was a PCA event, and and insurance regs were violated, then you must follow up. -that type of thing can end the entire DE program nationally.

However, I have wonder if I should trust your opinion....

dmoffitt

All of them. Everywhere. Heck, you might as well chain her in the basement

I was more thinking along the lines of the infamous "Dazed and Confused" (if you haven't seen it there's a funny quote about high school girls) ... sheesh, take a joke, it's an internet forum



Now back to the matter at hand since my attempt at humor OBVIOUSLY fell on deaf ears. I think it's somewhat cowardly to post all of this here instead of bringing it up with local / regional / national officers - it SCREAMS "drama llama" to me, registering an account to (deserved or not / wrong or not) post libel and cause potential defamation - even IF everything you said was exactly how it happened (not going to question / get into that) you've now put said CI at such a disadvantage with his/her peers ... if you REALLY cared / were worried you'd escalate this properly, and in my opinion, the proper place is NOT here.

Bob Rouleau

Like many others I am puzzled why you chose to post the above here while hiding behind a screen name.

A few comments:

1) Was the 16 year old really 16? Was she driving or just attending? If she was really less than 18 and driving - a serious mistake was made.

2)Perhaps some regions permit taking a passenger providing the passenger has signed the waivers? In my region the driver must be an instructor.

3) The CI is at liberty to decide who he or she wants to teach at his event. Are the instructor in question? What is/was the alleged "business reason"?

4) The CI is a very busy guy usually and has enough students and check rides of his own to manage. Were you the blue student by any chance? In my region, instructors are expected to make the decision to promote or not, on their own. Asking for a second opinion is a cop out.

On the other hand if the student was passed over for promotion by the original instructor and demanded the CI perform the check ride, I'd do the same, i.e. send him/her out with another instructor to eliminate any bias caused by bad chemistry unless I was available myself, which is seldom thr case.

5) Not being there is not a mortal sin provided the responsibility was properly designated. I wouldn't do it myself, but I wouldn't make a big deal of it, especially not knowing the circumstances. Certainly not against any rules I know of. The CI is a v-o-l-u-n-t-e-e-r like everyone else. You make it sound like he was AWOL.

What is your motivation for this campaign?

Lastly as others have said, why post it here? Does the region have a president? A track chair, a board of directors? Failing all that, take it to Pete Tremper National DE Chair, or Arlene Novak, National Safety Chair. You'd have to use your real name though - sorta like Manny and me.

Regards,