TRAKCAR

+1!!

I get real uncomfortable when in the car with a driver who shuffle steers a lot and i think that I can actually feel them beeing less smooth and have less good car placement than they would be without suffle steering.
My feeling is that shufflers are OK until the car starts to get out of hand, than they are at a big disadvantage getting the car out of a spin.

IMHO, I pretty much drive the car on the my limit and I have not spun yet....
But I will one day and that it is mostly luck and I drive off the track into the path of the least resistance once in a while....

sbelles

Ah, I guess by many of the definitions here I'm not actually shuffling since I never move my hands more then once and probably never more then about 60 degrees. I'll try to cut back but I don't think I will eliminate it entirely. As for teaching it, I'm not sure I would know how to even if I wanted to since where to re-grip is entirely unconscious.

Sean F

I wonder what Senna would say?

Start watching at the :50 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg

moving hands??? shuffle steering??

ausgeflippt951

So let me get this straight:

Now there is a differentiation between "shuffle steering" and "moving your hands?" Sounds like a cop-out to me...

So then according to the aforementioned definition, I would be in the "moving your hands" camp. I completely agree with Joe P. in regards to it being a tool, just like heel-toeing or throttle-off oversteer. Assuming corners are not too tight, I keep my hands in the 9-and-3 position, but on tighter corners I'll "move my hands." Every truly good racing driver does it; dozens of examples have already been shown.

Don't write off moving your hands -- to me, it's akin to riding a motorcycle at the limit. You don't keep your body in one position, do you? No! You adjust riding position depending on the type of corner and the speed at which you're taking it. Same thing goes with driving a car, except here the most obvious difference is manifested in the driver's hands.

Sean F

7 time WDC at the 1:30 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMHW_...eature=related

ausgeflippt951

He's just out for a Sunday drive now isn't he? If it weren't for the racing suit I'd think he was driving to church...

Larry Herman

I guess that he would say "it depends". In one tight corner, he grips the wheel at the 3 & 9 position. In another turn (around 1 minute) he definitely moves both hands. It is less of what you might call a shuffle and more of a grip the wheel with one hand where you will want it to be, and then reposition the other after you start turning the wheel.

Sean F

Senna...hands everywhere - letting go of the wheel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izaWl...eature=related

Watch at the 2:00 mark...it gets crazy

This is an amazing video

Sean F

That's what I call shuffle. Moving your hands, but not crossing them. The right way to do it is just as you describe.

ausgeflippt951

To me, it's plain and simple: the tighter the track (all the way down to autox), the more you "move your hands."

I don't need to move my hands when driving the formula car; it's less than a turn lock-to-lock.

You must be fluid, you must be smooth. And if not moving your hands gives you the most fluidity and continuity, don't move your hands. But, chances are (like in my case and many others') it won't.

MTosi

Both video's are absolutley moving hands, you'll notice that they always return to 9 and 3. If anything those video's confirm keeping you hands in the same spot, particularly the one ith schumi, notice how his hands are always hooked on the spokes until he has to move them to correct for the slide

I don't get what people are inferring, that people who say you should keep your hands at ten and two and not shuffle will keep them there all the way into the wall when the car gets realy lose and not continue correcting? I thought it was glaringly obvious and inferred that once more than one lock is needed that you have to move your hands......the point is 95% of the time hands hooked on spokes is where they should be. Were are simply pointing out that people sit there and shuffle the wheel EVERY corner, are exhibting bad habits learned on the street.

and I laugh at people who say they "need to shuffle" on any road course. I auto-X alot and will almost NEVER shuffle my hands, If I can auto x and not need to shuffle there is no reason to shuffle on the track. (of course I have to move my hands on turn arounds or if I get realllly loose, but that might be one or two times during the course of a run with 30 corners.....)

Bryan Watts

Not far from the truth...

M758

When I autocrossed my stock 83 944 with manual steering I had to some really odd things. One of them was to pull left had off the wheel for hard left corners and reach all the way to the right. Then yank the wheel left with all my strength. Certainly not ideal, but with low speeds and the weight of manual steering in autocross even with street tires and a stock suspension I could not turn the car fast enough any otherway. Now it was very rough and crude, but once I got the initial rotation I could more easily manage the steering inputs.

Now I would never teach that to anyone, but it worked quite well consider how quickly I could hustle this stock sprung, street tired car around an autocross course.

Point is absolutes are fine for novices as they need strong solid foundations, but when you work up to the advance level things get more fuzzy and absolutes don't apply as much. Strict Technique becomes less important that the outcome of the process and often times corners become unique such that what is abnomal other places is stardard in others.

So shuffle steer or not. In general no, but if you fine yourself crossed up and uncomfortable in certain corners by all means move the hands so that to can regain a comfortable and controllable hand position on the wheel.

MTosi

I think the misconception the shufflers have is that when we say keep your hands at 10 and 2 is that we mean 100% of the time, thats just stupid obviously you have to move your hands for special cirumstances like you just described. I actually autox'd an 83 944 and had the same problem, but I just sort of muscled through it, but at the end of the day was pretty sore. Of course I autox'd an S2 one day on street tires and more than a few times and ran out of lock while correcting at about 70, and had to nail it down with throttle, but I wasn't shuffling my hands. Had I done that I would have spun, I was more one handing it as far as I could go on the first turn of the wheel, until I couldn't go any further than would reach over the top of the wheel with my other hand and do the same. You can see that technique in almost all of the video's that have been posted in this thread.

Larry Herman

I wind up shuffling my feet around the pits, but that's usually just at the end of the day.