Flying Finn

NEVER shuffle steer!

Unless you find yourself going through Lowes in Monaco, or you're correcting a major slide, do not shuffle steer. For example T7 in Sebring is prefectly fine without shuffle. See the photo below.

Your instructor should point it out to you. If you're solo, get a good instructor and tel him you need to get rid of a bad habit.
Drive slower if you need to and DO NOT shuffle steer for the whole day. By the end of the day you're out of it.

On my last track event I had a student who was a solo driver, he was otherwise ok but not very smooth and shuffle steered... After the first session I told him we need to get rid of it. He had never been commented about it by his instructors (hello?!) and I told him it will be kinda weird since he was used to shuffle but that I want him to try it for one whole session and then let me know how it feels. I kept pointing it out to him the few times he forgot to di it but by the half through the session he was loving it and his driving through left-right-left corners was much smoother and faster.

I've heard some times people saying "some pro drivers do it" etc. and that's all bull****. If some race driver has a bad habit, it doesn't mean it's ok for do it.
There's no excuses for it (except for those corners such as Lowes), I've heard them all but that doesn't change the fact that it's a very bad habit if you're racing or otherwise driving fast on a track.

T7 Sebring:

sweanders

Shuffle steer and correcting grip is not the same in my book. For some turns it makes sense to change to a position that lets me not cross the arms. Once after trackout the hands are returned or moved to a new position suitable for the next turn. It's really no work since the steerin wheel returns if the alignment is correct and. Just ease the grip and re-grip when it is in place.

Danger of shuffle steer is that you might have the steering wheel positioned otherwise than you think.

I had an interesting off a couple of years ago on a ice track (plowed lake) where I had corrected a major slide with some serious steering maneuvers. Once the car started going somewhat straight and gripped it was made very clear that the steering wheel was a full 360 degrees off and I plowed a new route surfing over the snow.

Flying Finn

That's one very good reason for not to shuffle.

Bob Rouleau

Some regions insist on shuffle steer - airbags are the main reason. I tried it but don't like it, except for corners which can't be taken with 3 and 9 - even then I have a "home hand" to that the orientation of the wheel is known at all times.

If I get an out of region student who has been taught shuffle, I leave him be. As I recall, Joe Holzer - a top notch instructor is a disciple of shuffle and expounds on its virtues trying to convert sinners like me

Open wheel race cars cannot use shuffle steer, they have a yoke instead of a wheel, see F1 for example.

DM993tt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIibbiDJMpo - is this considered shuffle steering?

Flying Finn

Is this an attempt to try and say it's good to shuffle steer?

Well, it isn't good.

Regarding this very cool and famous yellowbird video: as already was said, if correcting a big slide, you might need to do it and for that, it's ok. This guy was sliding around on purpose so in some place he needed to do so but in cases when it wasn't necessary, he didn't (i.e. aroun 45 sec. mark).

sweanders

No, when would you say Stefan shuffled in the video?

Bull

+1 (but my name isn't Jack Olsen). In tight corners, with a manual steering car, I move my hands. Never a problem in over 30 years.

race911

And my name is......well, it's below........and I probably started doing it when I first drove solo on an International tractor when I was 8 or 9. Been doing it all the time, from my first street car to my first 911 (short wheelbase one at that) when I was 18 to the Radical or the rest of the fleet now. I think it's a TOTAL non-issue. I'll put my skill level up against pretty much any other 40something; I'm good for a few laps before I start thinking about business issues or why I really shouldn't waste a day at the track.

Bryan Watts

I don't seem to have any problems. Things happen REALLY slowly in these cars, even when going fast...drive a formula car and it will really bring things into perspective as to how slowly things really are happening. (And yes, I've even driven some formula cars where I preferred to move my hands rather than to cross them up in a really right corner.)

All of you "never shuffle steer" guys are being silly. Performance driving can't be broken down to things that everyone must do. Is there a correct way to teach a total newb? Yeah, I'll buy into that. In the end, folks have different ways of getting at the same goal (see below).

Hell, we've got Kibort telling folks never to shuffle steer when his videos clearly show him driving almost the entire track with one hand on the wheel and one on the shifter. It seems a bit crazy to me for someone who drives like that to be telling other people that shuffle steering isn't a correct method. Yet, IIRC, Neal Sapp is/was a master of driving with one hand a...I've never seen anyone else who did it nearly as well.

Never been a problem for me. Do you forget which gear you are in? The mind has the ability to process a LOT of information very quickly...mine never seems to have any problem processing where I've moved my hands to and how much I've turned the wheel.

Hi, my name is Bryan, and I drive fast, and I don't like having my arms crossed up. I think I've spun once in the last 3-4 years...so I'm either going REALLY slow, or I'm doing alright.

sweanders

I didn't say that I am die hard non-shuffler. If there is a reason I don't see why it shouldn't be done. But then I don't understand why it would be needed.

When driving on gravel or ice it is necessary to adjust grip since you will be using opposite lock, sometimes fully. Many rally cars have modified the steering to be very fast to avoid having to move the hands around.

When driving on ice or gravel you are almost never going straight and always balancing the car. It is quite easy to ride a big slide out and not notice that the wheels are not straight until they grip if you have to turn the wheel from lock to lock. Letting the wheel go to self center does not work perfectly in when there is little friction.

Sean F

With all due respect Finn, if people like Hurley Haywood think it's a good idea and he teaches it (he taught it to my friend at Barber) I'm not sure how you can take such a firm negative stance. He's not "some pro driver". It's also taught at car control clinics at Skip Barber.

Veloce Raptor

I think, like most things related to droving, there are no absolutes. While I do not teach shuffling to any of my advanced students, I do not chide them if they utilize it where appropriate (such as in low speed corners requiring lots of steering angle). I tend not to use it myself much....but I do use it in certain circumstances.

MTosi

+1

DON'T SHUFFLE YOUR HAND'S

Anyone who tell's you otherwise is WRONG. That being said sometimes in a car you need to move your hands not "shuffle your hands". Realy good racers will know how much more steering they will need and take it, they don't have to guess and shuffle the wheel like grandma. But for all intents and purposes on most american road courses your hand should be locked at 10 and 2 all the time, barring major oversteer, which I hope to god your not shuffling to correct for because you'll most likely be in the wall. Here are all example of good drivers using more than one turn of steering whilst not shuffling......

I think you'll see they generally tend to use one hand, and then pass it off to the next....far quicker than shuffling


Good example Rorhrl in 911S rally car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u_sWeqDwc

Brillant Example with Ari Vatenen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E93ag4Rp-Gg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwvIRuCLbyg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWKXU...eature=related

and yes its hard to find examples of good drivers needing more than one turn of lock all of those are rallying and wet

kurt M

Why would you want to defeat a safety system? Ajust how you drive some and also remember that when all is lost and you are going to hit something remove your hands and feet from the controls just before to help prevent them from being broken. I have seen club level racers get broken feet from riding it in. Watch the F1 drovers in car cam wrecks. Most "assume the position" just prior to impact if they have enough advance warning. If you can say Oh ****! twice you have enought time to think of and peform this.

Moving a hand to a better position during a turn can be done with no loss of control or your minds eye of where the wheel is IMO. This puts your hands and arms in the high power and fine control position when you need it most, in the turn during the turn. Dithering your hands an inch at a time all over the turn is not good but absolutes are not ether.