Shuffle stearing in racing and DE
05-09-2008, 03:05 PM
#62
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Precisely what is meant by 'shuffle steering' probably varies a lot in this discussion. The Walter Rohrl clip is a good illustration of what I would call shuffle steering. He locks and unlocks both right and left hands frequently, definitely not keeping them fixed at 9-and-3 or 10-and-2. In fact, he keeps the his left hand close to the 9 o'clock position relative to the car (absolute horizontal) rather than relative to the steering wheel. He also locks his thumbs inside the spokes, which some instructors would get apoplectic about.
Obviously, he's doing fine, both in terms of performance and safety. Equally obvious: just because he does it doesn't mean you must shuffle your hands and lock your thumbs in order to be a competent driver.
A 1971 911 with stickier or wider-than-stock tires requires a fair amount of steering effort, since there's no power assist and the car is probably set up with a lot of caster. My own car with 275mm R compounds in front requires a lot more steering effort than most of my students' cars.
Obviously, he's doing fine, both in terms of performance and safety. Equally obvious: just because he does it doesn't mean you must shuffle your hands and lock your thumbs in order to be a competent driver.
A 1971 911 with stickier or wider-than-stock tires requires a fair amount of steering effort, since there's no power assist and the car is probably set up with a lot of caster. My own car with 275mm R compounds in front requires a lot more steering effort than most of my students' cars.
05-09-2008, 03:09 PM
#63
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They tell me some woman have no choice but to shuffle steer due to, um,... anatomical reasons, but I've yet to see it first hand. 
05-09-2008, 03:48 PM
#66
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
05-09-2008, 03:52 PM
#67
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He also locks his thumbs inside the spokes, which some instructors would get apoplectic about.
05-09-2008, 04:04 PM
#68
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Both video's are absolutley moving hands, you'll notice that they always return to 9 and 3. If anything those video's confirm keeping you hands in the same spot, particularly the one ith schumi, notice how his hands are always hooked on the spokes until he has to move them to correct for the slide
I don't get what people are inferring, that people who say you should keep your hands at ten and two and not shuffle will keep them there all the way into the wall when the car gets realy lose and not continue correcting? I thought it was glaringly obvious and inferred that once more than one lock is needed that you have to move your hands......the point is 95% of the time hands hooked on spokes is where they should be. Were are simply pointing out that people sit there and shuffle the wheel EVERY corner, are exhibting bad habits learned on the street.
and I laugh at people who say they "need to shuffle" on any road course. I auto-X alot and will almost NEVER shuffle my hands, If I can auto x and not need to shuffle there is no reason to shuffle on the track. (of course I have to move my hands on turn arounds or if I get realllly loose, but that might be one or two times during the course of a run with 30 corners.....)
I don't get what people are inferring, that people who say you should keep your hands at ten and two and not shuffle will keep them there all the way into the wall when the car gets realy lose and not continue correcting? I thought it was glaringly obvious and inferred that once more than one lock is needed that you have to move your hands......the point is 95% of the time hands hooked on spokes is where they should be. Were are simply pointing out that people sit there and shuffle the wheel EVERY corner, are exhibting bad habits learned on the street.
and I laugh at people who say they "need to shuffle" on any road course. I auto-X alot and will almost NEVER shuffle my hands, If I can auto x and not need to shuffle there is no reason to shuffle on the track. (of course I have to move my hands on turn arounds or if I get realllly loose, but that might be one or two times during the course of a run with 30 corners.....)
05-09-2008, 04:08 PM
#69
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05-09-2008, 04:15 PM
#70
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Shuffle steering is for sissies, everyone knows a real racer uses a suicide ****
I've occasionally do a sorta shuffle steer in teh formula car even though it has an open top wheel. I actually do it during a long turn like the carousel for two reasons. One it's easier on the arms, and two I have quicker reactions when my arms aren't as twisted up.
In the autocross world, anything and everything goes so bringing that into the discussion is sortof a moot point. I've driven courses where if you didn't shuffle steer you were going to drive off course it was so tight. Not just a little shuffle steer either. I've been to full steering lock in a number of cars while autocrossing at some of the smaller lots that exist. It wasn't super fun.
I've occasionally do a sorta shuffle steer in teh formula car even though it has an open top wheel. I actually do it during a long turn like the carousel for two reasons. One it's easier on the arms, and two I have quicker reactions when my arms aren't as twisted up.
In the autocross world, anything and everything goes so bringing that into the discussion is sortof a moot point. I've driven courses where if you didn't shuffle steer you were going to drive off course it was so tight. Not just a little shuffle steer either. I've been to full steering lock in a number of cars while autocrossing at some of the smaller lots that exist. It wasn't super fun.
05-09-2008, 04:16 PM
#71
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05-09-2008, 04:19 PM
#72
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The only turn where I "shuffle steer" or "move my hands" is in the Keyhole at Mid Ohio... It seems stupid not to (I get really crossed). I tried for a while not to and then gave up... It's much better now...
05-09-2008, 04:20 PM
#73
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Like I said Larry, there are plenty of weird instructing going on and I'm really friggin' glad it's Friday!
05-09-2008, 04:26 PM
#74
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I understand the humor in your comment, but when I raced SRF a LOT of experienced folks in that class advocated keeping your thumbs from wrapping around the wheel. It does not take that hard a hit with another car to spin the steering wheel and break a thumb. I think that has saved me a time or two. Since moving my thumb position I have also found that it helps keep a lighter grip on the steering wheel.
05-09-2008, 04:33 PM
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I understand the humor in your comment, but when I raced SRF a LOT of experienced folks in that class advocated keeping your thumbs from wrapping around the wheel. It does not take that hard a hit with another car to spin the steering wheel and break a thumb. I think that has saved me a time or two. Since moving my thumb position I have also found that it helps keep a lighter grip on the steering wheel.
okay fine I cave....here's a video, we need to tell this guy to shuffle his hands and not hook his thumbs on the wheel, doubt he knows what he's doing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJDkZ...eature=related